Um...my new training theory

[Harry Carry]

I look at round counting this way.

Do I want to end up in slide lock with an empty chamber?

I don't.

Therefore if I know when I have one remaining in the pipe I can drop the empty mag and insert fresh one without ever being out of the fight.

Just my .02

Welcome aboard, Austin.

[Austin]

Originally Posted by Harry Carry

I look at round counting this way.

Do I want to end up in slide lock with an empty chamber?

I don't.

Therefore if I know when I have one remaining in the pipe I can drop the empty mag and insert fresh one without ever being out of the fight.

Just my .02

Welcome aboard, Austin.

I thank you all for the kind greetings

now back to the discussioin, what happens when you need to fire that last round in the chamber without the mag in the gun yet and the gun closes back on an empty chamber? Now you still have to seat the mag and fully rack the slide to chamber a round any way.

[Harry Carry]

Originally Posted by Austin

I thank you all for the kind greetings

now back to the discussioin, what happens when you need to fire that last round in the chamber without the mag in the gun yet and the gun closes back on an empty chamber? Now you still have to seat the mag and fully rack the slide to chamber a round any way.

If that happens then you reload on slide lock. I'd prefer not to have to do that.

[NiteQwill]

If you're reloading in a gun fight, you know the situation is already pretty bad. Make every round count!

[WKC]

I have tried counting rounds in IDPA matches. I've not been successful even though I can plan out my shoot. It's better that I focus on driving the gun and using cover.

[Glock32]

Originally Posted by Austin

I thank you all for the kind greetings

now back to the discussioin, what happens when you need to fire that last round in the chamber without the mag in the gun yet and the gun closes back on an empty chamber? Now you still have to seat the mag and fully rack the slide to chamber a round any way.

That is correct. That last round in the chamber is called insurance. If your pistol has a magazine disconnect you have a hammer for the time being.
Most instructors will tell you to manage you ammo supply wisely. What that means is don't get caught with your slide locked back in a gunfight IF you can avoid it. Round count becomes an issue. A mag change after around 2 thirds of your ammo in your pistol has been expended is a good start I've been taught - if the situation allows to do so safely of course.

What did you learn regarding mag chages with the people you trained with? What is their take ammo management? How do they tell you to do it? I am asking out of curiousity since different folks teach different techiques.

[Austin]

let me think.

[Austin]

Originally Posted by Glock32

That is correct. That last round in the chamber is called insurance. If your pistol has a magazine disconnect you have a hammer for the time being.
Most instructors will tell you to manage you ammo supply wisely. What that means is don't get caught with your slide locked back in a gunfight IF you can avoid it. Round count becomes an issue. A mag change after around 2 thirds of your ammo in your pistol has been expended is a good start I've been taught - if the situation allows to do so safely of course.

What did you learn regarding mag chages with the people you trained with? What is their take ammo management? How do they tell you to do it? I am asking out of curiousity since different folks teach different techiques.

Well anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is not. Only hits count. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

[Austin]

We train to shoot until the fight is over. If the instuctor calls 2 rounds to the brain box and one off those shots is not in the box you keep shooting until you have two rounds in the brain box. whether its two shots or 10. Keep fighting!

F.A.S.T.

FIGHT(fight!)
ASSESS(do I need to fight anymore?)
SCAN(do I need to fight anyone else?)
TAC-LOAD(prepare to fight again)

[45 ACP]

Originally Posted by Austin

We train to shoot until the fight is over. If the instuctor calls 2 rounds to the brain box and one off those shots is not in the box you keep shooting until you have two rounds in the brain box. whether its two shots or 10. Keep fighting!

F.A.S.T.

FIGHT(fight!)
ASSESS(do I need to fight anymore?)
SCAN(do I need to fight anyone else?)
TAC-LOAD(prepare to fight again)

You're an instructor for Tactical Response or a student?

[Austin]

I'm a student.

[Poogsdad]

When I was much younger, counting rounds was always taught as part of ammunition management. However, I was rarely able to count rounds consistently.

Real life engagements almost always had all kinds of distractions such as loud noises (gun shots and explosions) all around you, people calling for help or crying out, and the need to communicate with the men to your left and right or your subordinate leaders so we trained accordingly.

Tactical reloads during a lull in the engagement then topping off the used magazines when the situation allowed was the predominant method of ammunition management.

While it is never a good thing to have your slide lock back on an empty magazine in the middle of a firefight, it does happen. Training to move to cover and have your partner (if you have one) cover your butt while you effect an emergency reload can be quite beneficial in real life.

Now that I am retired and no longer find myself in that sort of situation, I still try to incorporate tactical reloads and movement between controlled pairs and FTS drills. I generally continue a drill until all ammunition on my body is expended so the magazines are continuously switched out during tactical reloads. Eventually slide lock on an empty magazine will always occur, at which point an emergency reload is necessary.

Counting rounds is a valuable skill and those trainers and shooters who incorporate it into their training are doing a good thing.

It is important to remember, however, that we will most likely perform only half as well under the stress of a real life engagement as we perform in training. It is easy to lose count under stress.

Thanks,

[Austin]

Great to see more opinions!

[El Gato]

The Department I work for does alot of stupid stuff... lets just get that out first...
As to the Not Stupid:
One of the things we teach is to reload that empty gun... fast... cause the data seems to suggets they will shoot the gun until the gun is empty or the fights over or both... So we teach them to shoot the gun and then reload it fast...

Grossman quotes some data that suggests that if you shoot over about 4 rounds your round counting thingee that you did in your head ... is now out the window and your brain will come up with imaginary numbers...reload

We also teach that if you are not moving you are a good target... never be a good target... our Qual involves moving and shooting...

Also not stupid... the more reliable your gun is... the more you need to practice malfunctions... fix problems...not fix blame....

that is all .. you may now return to your regularly scheduled program...

[Austin]

great post!!!!!!