Hands vs Gun

[cori2a]

"Don't bring a gun to a knife fight".
Take the challenge. Go to one of Gabe's classes and see if you can beat an attacker within the 21' distance. Fifteen feet? Ten feet? Take the training and let's revisit this thread afterwards.

[Spicy McHaggis]

Originally Posted by cori2a

"Don't bring a gun to a knife fight".
Take the challenge. Go to one of Gabe's classes and see if you can beat an attacker within the 21' distance. Fifteen feet? Ten feet? Take the training and let's revisit this thread afterwards.

I've trained and taught enough years in "martial arts" / "karate" to know what a false sense of security it gives you in a real self defense situation. To give another person money to train in something I know won't work in the "real world" is pointless for me.

In a select few situations it might work, but for the most part it is a joke. If a BG is intent on shooting you, he will. And he will do it before you can react or before you can do your "karate techniques" to disarm him.

[cori2a]

Not worth replying to. I am done.

[X-ffdo]

Aikido takes a long time to master. It is good way to go, it is like when you are building your house, it will take a long time before you can live in it. I took some training.
Krav Maga, developed by the Israelis, I hear it is also good but the schools need to be checked out to insure they are the real thing. I hear of disparities in the material that is being taught, as the experience of the teachers varies.

[akulahawk]

Originally Posted by LAH3

I think Krav Maga and Aikido would be a much better way to go for disarming a person. Both were specifically developed to combat persons that are armed, sword, knife, bat, iron skillet, gun.

I also think that any type of hand to hand combat gives you a much better chance of survival even if you are armed.

I've studied Aikido, a bit of Judo, and some Shotokan Karate and a LOT of tennis. Seriously though, I've learned that it takes a long time (several years) to gain a high enough level of proficiency to make ANY martial art work. In my case, I learned a lot of movement stuff through tennis. Eventually I stopped thinking about which stroke I'd have to do and started thinking about WHERE I wanted to put the ball. Everything else was on sort of an autopilot.

When I started learning Aikido, I began incorporating that into what I already knew. It shortened up things a bit, but it still took a couple years to even approach any level of proficiency. It has been many years since I've studied Aikido, but I recently found, while taking a job-related class, that I still know how to do many of those techniques. I can DO some Judo and Karate, but I have to think about the techniques. Aikido works for what it was designed for. So does Krav Maga. So do others. Experts can make ANYTHING they're expert in look easy and they have the experience to adapt what they know to the situation. Newbies don't have the skill or experience to do that.

Bottom line is that it took 2-3 YEARS before I could even think about realistically applying what I'd learned. The biggest thing I'd learned is... NONE of works if you're out of contact range and timing once you ARE close enough IS absolutely critical and everything. You can't hit, throw, pin, whatever, if you can't touch it. Suarez's techniques are also useless if he can't touch you. At that point, your best defense is to NOT be there.

I very much enjoy Aikido, but no dojo's around here have classes on my schedule... I neeeed more training... and I can't get it... yet.

[Glock32]

If a guy/gal who kows what to do with a knife gets within 21 feet of you you are dead, unless you have your front sight on that person already. There is no karate, aikido or other BS to it. It's am matter of action versus reaction and you will not get your concealed firearm out in time to avoid getting stabbed. You guys can rant all you want about a Gabe S. or other instructors and call their techniques BS. Fact is, these people want to make you aware that distance is your friend. This all goes in the same direction: At what point are you justified to draw/shoot a person?
I heard Mas Ayoob has a similar demonstration, so do others. Take it for what it is. I am not trying to defend Gabe S. I don't know the guy from Adam.
coric21: don't get dscouraged and thanks for your insight.

[Harry Carry]

Let's all remember we can disagree without being disagreeable. Everyone takes what they want from training, and Glock32 made a good point in recognizing that most instructors will drill into you that distance is your friend.

[akulahawk]

Originally Posted by Glock32

If a guy/gal who kows what to do with a knife gets within 21 feet of you you are dead, unless you have your front sight on that person already. There is no karate, aikido or other BS to it. It's am matter of action versus reaction and you will not get your concealed firearm out in time to avoid getting stabbed. You guys can rant all you want about a Gabe S. or other instructors and call their techniques BS. Fact is, these people want to make you aware that distance is your friend. This all goes in the same direction: At what point are you justified to draw/shoot a person?
I heard Mas Ayoob has a similar demonstration, so do others. Take it for what it is. I am not trying to defend Gabe S. I don't know the guy from Adam.
coric21: don't get dscouraged and thanks for your insight.

The drill you're referring to is the "Tueller Drill". In one of my firearm classes, we did that very drill. It is VERY eye-opening. I personally believe that if I'm being forced to do combat unarmed vs. knife, I fully expect to get cut. Badly. I prefer to keep my body parts unsliced, so I'm going to try to not be there. It wouldn't matter if I was an expert in no-touch-em-and-they-die martial art... I'm still going to expect to be cut. Good training (regardless where you get it) may help you reduce the damage that you receive.

Distance is very much my friend.

[akulahawk]

Originally Posted by Harry Carry

Let's all remember we can disagree without being disagreeable. Everyone takes what they want from training, and Glock32 made a good point in recognizing that most instructors will drill into you that distance is your friend.

+1!!!!!!!

[LAH3]

Everyone can talk about how they think it takes years to master a martial art, it takes years to master ANYTHING, even using a gun.

I am living proof that a martial art can help when attacked by a knife and I am not a martial arts "master". I would be dead right now if I had not taken martial arts. My left forefinger almost got chopped off as opposed to the knife being lodged in my throat or my chest. And the person that attacked me from about 10 feet out will probably never have good usage of his arm and wrist ever again.

People dismiss martial arts because it takes years to "master" the truth is, you never master a martial art. There will always be another person better and there will be a time when a person has a gun and shoots you and you can't do anything about it.

My one and only point of a person taking a martial art is, it keeps you sharp and used to physical contact, so when you are presented with an attack you do not freeze, and it does give you a much better % of survival.

There are many variables in an attack and if a person has a gun on you and it misfires or they did not have the safety off, that is the point in which knowledge in a martial art will come in handy.

General statements like "if a person knows what they are doing with a knife, you are dead" is pretty ridiculous, there are so many things that can happen in any confrontation and I only encourage people to have as many options as possible, just like a person that has a ccw will most times carry a backup gun and also a knife, its about having options and giving yourself a fighting chance.

[Glock32]

Originally Posted by akulahawk

+1!!!!!!!

+2!

[Glock32]

Originally Posted by LAH3

Everyone can talk about how they think it takes years to master a martial art, it takes years to master ANYTHING, even using a gun.

I am living proof that a martial art can help when attacked by a knife and I am not a martial arts "master". I would be dead right now if I had not taken martial arts. My left forefinger almost got chopped off as opposed to the knife being lodged in my throat or my chest. And the person that attacked me from about 10 feet out will probably never have good usage of his arm and wrist ever again.

People dismiss martial arts because it takes years to "master" the truth is, you never master a martial art. There will always be another person better and there will be a time when a person has a gun and shoots you and you can't do anything about it.

My one and only point of a person taking a martial art is, it keeps you sharp and used to physical contact, so when you are presented with an attack you do not freeze, and it does give you a much better % of survival.

There are many variables in an attack and if a person has a gun on you and it misfires or they did not have the safety off, that is the point in which knowledge in a martial art will come in handy.

General statements like "if a person knows what they are doing with a knife, you are dead" is pretty ridiculous, there are so many things that can happen in any confrontation and I only encourage people to have as many options as possible, just like a person that has a ccw will most times carry a backup gun and also a knife, its about having options and giving yourself a fighting chance.

Very good post. I hope my post was not misleading. Hand to hand skills are very important. I did not mean to ridicule martial arts at all.

[NSP]

I've always heard that if someone has a gun to your head you thrust your head forward and to the inside while striking the groin if possible. Never put it to use though.

[akulahawk]

Originally Posted by NSP

I've always heard that if someone has a gun to your head you thrust your head forward and to the inside while striking the groin if possible. Never put it to use though.

While that may work, you must know the answer to this two part question: can I move faster than his OODA loop while I keep his muzzle from sweeping me and am I WILLING to commit to this fully? No matter what technique you employ, they all boil down to answering that basic two part question.

[THaves]

I really enjoyed this thread, amazing all the experiences we have had and all the training.

I wanted to add my humble opinion, that no matter what training you have had in knife fighting or martial arts nothing beats your own situational awareness and your ability to find an escape route and run.