Pulling the trigger to decock the weapon

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

I was on the range Saturday when a student had a negligent discharge. Thankfully he had the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and no one was hurt. What he did was supposedly unload the gun then pressed the trigger to verify it was unloaded (to decock it) and it wasn't so it went off. He had been trained to do this. At post rangemaster school there was a negligent discharge that happened the same exact way.
WHY is this taught? Is there a training philosophy that requires that the gun be decocked by pulling the trigger? Seems to me this creates more hazard than if trained to keep the finger off the trigger until the sights are aligned and it is your intention to FIRE.

[Spicy McHaggis]

Originally Posted by SheWhoMustBeObeyed

I was on the range Saturday when a student had a negligent discharge. Thankfully he had the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and no one was hurt. What he did was supposedly unload the gun then pressed the trigger to verify it was unloaded (to decock it) and it wasn't so it went off. He had been trained to do this. At post rangemaster school there was a negligent discharge that happened the same exact way.
WHY is this taught? Is there a training philosophy that requires that the gun be decocked by pulling the trigger? Seems to me this creates more hazard than if trained to keep the finger off the trigger until the sights are aligned and it is your intention to FIRE.

Some firearms do not have decocking levers and you need to pull the trigger to decock it. However, it is usually taught that you put a finger (thumb usually) on the hammer to slowly drop it. You aren't supposed to just pull the trigger and let the hammer drop.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis

Some firearms do not have decocking levers and you need to pull the trigger to decock it. However, it is usually taught that you put a finger (thumb usually) on the hammer to slowly drop it. You aren't supposed to just pull the trigger and let the hammer drop.

I understand about decocking levers...that's not the question. My question is why must an unloaded gun be decocked? I understand using the thumb to slowly drop the hammer. But why must an unloaded gun be decocked. When we carry we carry cocked and locked on a 1911 or round chambered on an XD or Glock. I am wondering how this "safety practice" originated. As now it leads to negligent discharges.

[THE Gimper]

Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis

Some firearms do not have decocking levers and you need to pull the trigger to decock it. However, it is usually taught that you put a finger (thumb usually) on the hammer to slowly drop it. You aren't supposed to just pull the trigger and let the hammer drop.

Depends on the gun. Glocks don't have a hammer for you to put your finger on.

[RAD-G27]

What about the rule that you always check the chamber to make sure that it is not loaded?

[WKC]

What you described is standard practice at any IDPA match. When you are being unloaded under the directions of the Safety Officer (SO), you are commanded to first "unload and show clear". That is when you remove the magazine and pull the slide back to show the SO you have an empty chamber. The next command is "slide forward". Once the slide is forward, the next command is "hammer down". This is when you pull the trigger and let the hammer fall and strike the firing pin. You are not permitted to use the decocking lever. This is the last and final act that will ensure the chamber is empty. All this is done while the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction down range and no one is allowed to ahead of the muzzle.

This may seem unsafe but if enough mistakes are made and a round is still left in the chamber, at least the AD will be controlled and will occur in a safe direction. I have witnessed on AD as a result of the shooter not properly emptying the chamber the got ahead of the SO so the SO could not verify an empty chamber before the round was discharged. But the AD was in a safe direction so the only injury was to his ego.

[El Gato]

My Department had this rule at one time... empty the weapon...point it down range and pull the trigger on an empty chamber... after numerous negligent discharges the rule was changed to visually and physically check to verify the weapon is empty and to have the staff check each gun prior to cleaning...officers lock the slide back and the range staff check each gun to verify empty... we did this cause folks don't verify empty... the question arises... why are we pulling the trigger anyway? I think whas swmbo is getting at here is what is the training philosopy that says you empty and then pull the trigger...where is that from?
In the local uspsa club.. when you finish a run.. you have to pull the trigger on an empty weapon... no using de-cockers...not allowed... but when this leads to loud noises during quiet time on the range... it makes both of us nervous...hence my suggestion she post the question...

[WKC]

When I get ready to leave the range, I check the chamber and then lower the slide. I then point the gun down range at the back stop and pull the trigger to drop the hammer on the supposedly empty chamber. What this will ensure is that there is absolutely no way there is a round in the chamber after I following my procedure. It's belts and suspenders. Although I visually check the chamber myself, I could have screwed up. Or, if someone else also checked my chamber, they could have screwed up. So long as I execute my last step of pulling trigger while the gun is pointed down range in a safe direction I am guaranteed the chamber is empty. There is nothing dangerous about ADing into the backstop as long as no one is down range.

[WKC]

Originally Posted by El Gato

My Department had this rule at one time... empty the weapon...point it down range and pull the trigger on an empty chamber... after numerous negligent discharges the rule was changed to visually and physically check to verify the weapon is empty and to have the staff check each gun prior to cleaning...officers lock the slide back and the range staff check each gun to verify empty... we did this cause folks don't verify empty... the question arises... why are we pulling the trigger anyway? I think whas swmbo is getting at here is what is the training philosopy that says you empty and then pull the trigger...where is that from?
In the local uspsa club.. when you finish a run.. you have to pull the trigger on an empty weapon... no using de-cockers...not allowed... but when this leads to loud noises during quiet time on the range... it makes both of us nervous...hence my suggestion she post the question...

Your department did not make the situation any better by pass the buck. Each operator is responsible for checking the condition of his weapon. If they failed to do so, the solution is additional training to ensure they understand the importance of each action they take. By having the range staff check to ensure the chamber is empty, your department in effect has taken an important responsibility from the officers and passed it to the range staff. Now, if there is a mistake, someone will pay dearly.

Like I said before, dropping the hammer on an supposed empty chamber while the gun is pointed down range in a safe direction is only dangerous to the ego of someone who failed to properly verify their chamber is empty. When the gun goes bang, we know who screwed up and who will be taking safe gun handling 101 ... again.

[hygyliac]

In stiker fired pistols (Glocks and others with no external hammers) the firing pin spring is placed under partial tension while the pistol is cocked. In 1911s, Berettas, etc (pistols with external hammers) . . . the main spring, trigger spring, trigger cam (depending on the type of pistol) are all placed under tension when the hammer is cocked. You pull the trigger (dry fire) on an empty chamber in order to release the tension. Most old school pistol shooters recommend that you do this before you store the firearm away for any length of time . . . like a 10 day DROS

[El Gato]

Originally Posted by WKC

Your department did not make the situation any better by pass the buck. Each operator is responsible for checking the condition of his weapon. If they failed to do so, the solution is additional training to ensure they understand the importance of each action they take. By having the range staff check to ensure the chamber is empty, your department in effect has taken an important responsibility from the officers and passed it to the range staff. Now, if there is a mistake, someone will pay dearly.

Like I said before, dropping the hammer on an supposed empty chamber while the gun is pointed down range in a safe direction is only dangerous to the ego of someone who failed to properly verify their chamber is empty. When the gun goes bang, we know who screwed up and who will be taking safe gun handling 101 ... again.

As to my Dept. passing the buck... I work for the County... of course they passed the buck... what we did though is eliminate the full scale investigation and personel actions against officers when they had AD'S on the range... made my job easier and I ain't in charge and don't have any sayso anyhow... but I smell what you is cookin'

Point two... when running a "line" on a square range with 20 shooters who are all supposed to be doing the same thing at the same time.. and having someone pull the trigger to confirm they are unloaded is a problem... especially when they are not supposed to be handling the gun at that particular time anyway... In our business... we tell them to physiucally and visually confirm and empty weapon, drop the slide and/or close the cylnder and holster a safe and empty weapon system...verbatim...we do not tell them to pull the trigger... but some folks have this trigger pulling thing going on and it has led to two AD's in recent weeks while SWMBO has been running the range.... in 20 years the onlyest person who has nearly shot hisself was someone who thought his thumb was a better decocker than the one taurus put on the gun.... we love de-cockers... we go through extra training to teach people how to lower the hammer on a non-decocker hammer equipped shootin' iron.... SWMBO gets kinda "touchy" about AD'S when she is runnin' the show... and she IS running the show when she is runnin' the show... no what I mean...?

[WKC]

Originally Posted by El Gato

Point two... when running a "line" on a square range with 20 shooters who are all supposed to be doing the same thing at the same time.. and having someone pull the trigger to confirm they are unloaded is a problem... especially when they are not supposed to be handling the gun at that particular time anyway...

That to me is a bigger issue. If they are handling the gun when they are not suppose to, they need to be dealt with severely whether their handling resulted in an AD or not.

In our business... we tell them to physiucally and visually confirm and empty weapon, drop the slide and/or close the cylnder and holster a safe and empty weapon system...verbatim...we do not tell them to pull the trigger...

Visually and physically check is a necessary step. However, mistakes can be made. So my question is even if you visually and physically check the chamber, how do you make absolutely sure that the chamber is empty? For me, the surest way is to drop that hammer. If it goes bang, I know I screwed up and so does everyone else.

but some folks have this trigger pulling thing going on and it has led to two AD's in recent weeks while SWMBO has been running the range....

Although the two ADs are unfortunate, at least they AD'ed into a safe area. Think of what would happened if they decocked the hammer and had no idea there was still a round in the chamber. They may not AD on your SWMBO's range but the AD will hurt a lot more since it may not be in a safe direction. Those two who AD'ed failed miserably. It is an statement on their failure to properly check the chamber. It does not make the practice of dropping the hammer on an empty chamber with the muzzle pointed down range in a safe direction an unsafe practice. I much prefer that they discover they screwed up royally with the muzzle pointed safely down range. When I hear that hammer drop and I hear no bang, I know absolutely that they have properly checked the gun and it is empty. If I hear a bang, I also know that the gun is empty ... now. I will also know who failed to properly check their chamber for empty.

[rundmlee]

I own several types of guns that the only way to decock is to pull the trigger. One does NOT pull the trigger to verify it's unloaded. To reiterate what others have already posted, you verify that the gun is unloaded by performing a press check, i.e. not only visually checking that the chamber is empty, but also sticking you finger into the empty chamber (especially when it's dark).
Anyway, when right before I press to decock, I'm doing my press check. I'm sure some who don't shoot much would think I have have OCD.. "hey.. why is that person doing a press check.. he already unloaded..". Oh well.. much better to be overly cautious before that trigger pull to decock.

[WKC]

Originally Posted by rundmlee

I own several types of guns that the only way to decock is to pull the trigger. One does NOT pull the trigger to verify it's unloaded. To reiterate what others have already posted, you verify that the gun is unloaded by performing a press check, i.e. not only visually checking that the chamber is empty, but also sticking you finger into the empty chamber (especially when it's dark).
Anyway, when right before I press to decock, I'm doing my press check. I'm sure some who don't shoot much would think I have have OCD.. "hey.. why is that person doing a press check.. he already unloaded..". Oh well.. much better to be overly cautious before that trigger pull to decock.

The trigger pull is the last step in a procedure that is designed to be fail safe. When we unload and clear a gun, we first do a visual and physical check of the chamber. For the most part, we will do this correctly and the chamber will be empty. However, there is still a very small chance that we screwed up and the is still a round in the chamber. We can all say that such an error will never happen with us and hopefully, we will be proved correct. But that is something that we cannot say with absolute certainty. That last trigger pull with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction is a check to ensure the chamber is empty. You may want to consider it a secondary check but it is still a check. So if we failed to properly check the chamber visually and physically, the procedure to pull the trigger with the muzzle in a safe direction is a final safety check. If there is a round in the chamber, the procedure just cause you to AD into a safe direction. Nothing injured but your ego.

Just to be sure, we are not decocking the hammer. We are actually dropping the hammer down on what hopefully is an empty chamber. And if it not empty, you just AD'ed into a pile of dirt. You'll be red faced but no blood.

[Ken_In_Colo]

In the Navy, we stood quarterdeck watches with totally empty (no round in the chamber, no magazine in the well) .45s.

Nevertheless, at the change of each watch, a strict procedure for verifying a clear weapon was strictly adhered to.

The PO being relieved would:

1. Weapon drawn from holster, muzzle up
2. slide locked back
3. weapon placed on quarterdeck podium
4. remove belt/holster & place on quarterdeck podium

The relieving PO would:

1. put on belt/holster
2. retrieve weapon, muzzle in safe direction
3. visually & manually verify no magazine in well
4. visually & manually verify no round in chamber
5. slide forward
6. muzzle in safe direction, pull the trigger
7. holster weapon
8. relieve watch

Manual verification consisted of inserting 'pinky finger' into magazine well and chamber.

The 'safe direction' for pulling the trigger was usually a few inches above a bucket of sand. A sand bucket was always somewhere in the vicinity of the quarterdeck, primarily for extinguishing cigarettes.

The new PO of the watch would then supervise the relief of the bow and stern sentries, verifying that the M1s of the sentries contained no clips and no rounds chambered with an 'Inspection Arms'.