Pulling the trigger to decock the weapon

[NikNak]

As an active match competitor, and as a private collector, I never leave the range with out dry firing the gun (rifle - pistol - shotgun etc ) This has been a habit from day one as there is more concern over keeping constant tension on the springs in full-cock mode. Always remove the mag(open cylinder twice) double check the chamber, and send the hammer home .... anything in my safe has been treated in the same manner. The only ones I do not dry fire are a few older pieces..... due to potential metalurgical issues. Rimfire triggers are released as well ... the only exceptions are the Benelli & Pardini as they are prone to firing pin breakage .... it's in the manual.
One Rule ... STAY SAFE.

[swdr]

Originally Posted by WKC

Although the two ADs are unfortunate, at least they AD'ed into a safe area. Think of what would happened if they decocked the hammer and had no idea there was still a round in the chamber. They may not AD on your SWMBO's range but the AD will hurt a lot more since it may not be in a safe direction.

Exactly.

Worse. If they can screw up by not emptying the chamber through physical inspection, then they can and will screw up by breaking the rules and pointing an "unloaded" gun at somebody just for fun. They may even pull the trigger on that "unloaded" gun, because they "know" it's "safe".

Originally Posted by El Gato

it has led to two AD's in recent weeks while SWMBO has been running the range

If "SWMBO gets kinda 'touchy' about AD's when she is runnin' the show", maybe she should consider another line of work rather than letting two shooters every few weeks leave the range with guns that aren't unloaded -- just to keep her own fanny clean. Something with a lot less responsibility.

WKC's belt-and-suspenders comment is exactly right.

Originally Posted by Ken_In_Colo

Manual verification consisted of inserting 'pinky finger' into magazine well and chamber.

A good choice. It works regardless of lighting conditions, day or night. Being paranoid, I do it twice. And press trigger into a coffee can of sand. It's how I was taught.

[1buba]

I've had a few classes by a trainer from down there (NOT CCWI) that removes the shooter from the range and sends them home for a ND. Curious what y'all do about it EG.

BTW, IF you have told them to point the gun down range and the pin falls on a live round, this might just be cause for a butt reaming. It was, afterall, a safe way to test their competency at clearing the weapon...

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

If "SWMBO gets kinda 'touchy' about AD's when she is runnin' the show", maybe she should consider another line of work

First of all, EG needs to get a life as he talks about me behind my back far too much on this site.

Secondly, as far as me getting "touchy"...my concern was safety and if there is something I am overlooking as I run the line as I was taught to by EG and he is not infalliable.

Finally, being that I work 6 or 7 days a week there are times I think I'd like to not have to work but I know I could not adapt to being a "pampered princess."

I appreciate all of the discussion on this topic. It has been helpful to hear other views.

[El Gato]

It appears no person can pinpoint a training guideline or written safety practice that would dictate the trigger be pulled. Tension on the spring etc. is common reason to "drop the hammer" etc. What I need to do, besides get a life, is make sure I'm not missing anything here. A "practice" being a practice that has been done for years, might in fact have solid reasons behind it, yet it should be re-assessed ... if we are engaging in safety practices, we should take a fresh look at them periodically to insure there remains a rationale for the practice... and fine tune the practice etc....

I have always used safety violations, which did not endanger others, as an opportunity to capitalize on the teachable moment in that persons life. I don't yell at clients or use profanity... but I will pull someone off and try to use the moment to help them become better shooters, more safe shooters. SWMBO and I run large classes on our ranges and we have endeavored to tighten up the safety on the line... this is Kern after all and the local shooting range has few rules other than don't go forward of the firing line... shoot as fast and as often as you wish...it is a "cold" range...etc....IN fact it has only been the last few years that a shooting range as a business is financially tenable... when I was a kid folks just drove a few miles outside of town and shot in the foothills... or maybe at the club or some other informal area... this attitude can be a little too laid back for us and we have had numerous discussions on making things safer... SWMBO is, thankfully, a real stickler for safety... having not grown up around guns she does not suffer from the old "familiarity breeds contempt" syndrome... whereas I having grown up around firearms I have a tendency to be a bit too "relaxed"... I appreciate the imput....

[OCRancher]

Hmmmm. I was always taught that is best not to let the hammer down on those guns without a decocker, but rather drop the mag, pull the slide to empty any remaining round(s) and then leave locked open so ANYONE can see it is safe and empty. What's all this passion for letting the hammer down?

Same for rifles. Good buddy of mine on this forum removes all mags and bolts from his bolt actions when done with them.

[swdr]

Originally Posted by SWMBO

my concern was safety and if there is something I am overlooking as I run the line as I was taught to by EG and he is not infalliable.

Well said. Sounds like the EG hearsay might not have been entirely accurate.
You might consider getting a half dozen hotshots to go over and stand around the AD loser and cackle at him. Mortification is a good incentivizer. (If it's a female AD newbie, consoling is strongly recommended -- we need more women in firearms.)

[swdr]

Originally Posted by El Gato

I have always used safety violations, which did not endanger others, as an opportunity to capitalize on the teachable moment in that persons life.

Good to hear.

Originally Posted by El Gato

It appears no person can pinpoint a training guideline or written safety practice that would dictate the trigger be pulled.

You forgot to ask for this.

From the IPSC Handgun Competition Rules 15th Edition:
Rule 8.3.7.1 states that to show clear, self-loading guns must merely "release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer, if any)."

IDPA rules are similar. In addition to the IDPA website documents, here's a nice extended *written* safety practice from the Collin County (Texas) --> IDPA Newsletter, Volume 1, Issue 1, 27-May-1999:

When the SO has satisfied himself that your gun is clear, you will be instructed to drop (release) the slide, and pull the trigger. Both of these steps should be performed with the pistol pointed down-range at the berm, not at your feet or the ground in front of your feet. Down-range, at the berm. At a specific and safe spot on the berm, in fact. If, somehow, there is a round in the chamber, you want it to impact a safe area. (I have personally experienced a "mystery round" twice, once as the shooter and once as the SO. jdm) It's a rude surprise and not fun, but at least let's be safe...

Shooters with guns equipped with a decocker may not decock when asked to pull the trigger or drop the hammer. You must "fire" the gun to provide final proof that your chamber is empty -- And be sure to aim at the berm, because sometimes the chamber isn't empty.

Some guns, such as the Browning High-Power and Smith & Wesson pistols are equipped with magazine disconnectors. The hammers on these guns cannot be dropped by pulling the trigger unless a magazine is in the gun. Shooters using these types of guns must perform a slightly more complicated unloading routine:

The easiest way to accomplish the hammer drop with a gun equipped with a magazine disconnector is to bring an empty spare magazine along with you. After locking the slide open in response to the "Unload and Show Clear" command, you should inform the SO that your gun has a magazine disconnector. At this point, the SO should say, "Show me an empty magazine." After both the shooter and the SO have verified that the magazine is empty, the shooter may insert the empty magazine into the gun and pull the trigger. The magazine must then be removed from the gun before the gun is holstered. If the shooter does not have an empty magazine, then the magazine removed from the gun should be handed to the SO, who will unload it and hand it back to the shooter.

And here's a *written* safety practice from Ohio Defense Conditioning's
--> Concealed Carry Classroom and Range Rules.

"If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" – After issuance of this command, the shooter must continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows: Self-loaders – release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer, if any). If the gun proves to be clear, the shooter must holster the handgun.

And here's a *written* safety practice from the Boulder (Colo.) Rifle Club's --> Indoor Combat Pistol League:

While at this table and before holstering your firearm, please verify that it is indeed unloaded. The recommended procedure for semi-automatic firearms is to ensure the magazine has been removed from the firearm, and to rack the slide several times and then visually inspect the chamber to verify that it is empty. Let the slide forward and then pointing at the orange box, pull the trigger. If you hear a click, then all is right with the world and you may holster your pistol. If your ears are ringing because you just fired off a live round and weren't wearing ear protection, place your firearm on the table and wait for a match director, who will supervise the bagging up of your firearm and gear, and politely escort you from the range.

[WKC]

Originally Posted by OCRancher

Hmmmm. I was always taught that is best not to let the hammer down on those guns without a decocker, but rather drop the mag, pull the slide to empty any remaining round(s) and then leave locked open so ANYONE can see it is safe and empty. What's all this passion for letting the hammer down?

Same for rifles. Good buddy of mine on this forum removes all mags and bolts from his bolt actions when done with them.

For most modern firearms, dry firing is not detrimental to the action. (I say most since there may be some odd ball guns that the manufacturer does not recommend dry firing.) For antique firearms, you'll have to research and determine whether it does any harm to the action.


Dry firing a gun prior to putting it away as has been brought up in this thread deals with safety. What we are looking for is a fail-safe (fool proof) procedure that can be used to ensure the firearm is safe prior to putting it away. There are many ways to accomplish this and as you have stated, removing the the mag and bolt is one way. For semi-auto pistols and revolvers, disabling the action by disassembly may not be a practical alternative while you are standing on the firing line. This is especially true when you are at an IDPA or IPSC match where they run a cold range.

So, how do we ensure the pistol is safe recognizing that the human is the weak link. We all know that we have to visually and physically check the chamber. But, we can make mistakes. So can my buddy standing next to me. So can the safety officer. So if you simply rely on a visual and physical check of the chamber by you, your friend and the RSO, how can you be absolutely sure the gun is empty. As far as you buddy or the RSO is concern, as soon as you put that gun away and go home, they could care less if the gun is actually empty. If you find out later that it is not, they will be no where near you to suffer the consequences.

So here I have the gun that I think is empty but in the back of my mind, there is a 0.00000001% chance that it is not. Is there something I can to to further reduce that to zero%? That is where pulling the trigger and dropping the hammer on the chamber comes in. If the gun does not go bang, you are now absolutely, 100%, sure the gun is empty.

As SWDR cited, there are many shooting organizations that uses this procedure to unload a shooter after they are done.

[EM2]

An interesting topic.
While I am not in the buisness of running a range or teaching others I find this thread very informative.
I have always dropped the hammer on my Glock after ensuing it was unloaded before I put it away. I felt this was the best way to be sure it is unloaded.
Also with the Glock the trigger stays in the rearward position if the hammer is dropped on a empty chamber. This gives a good visual indicator every time you handle the firearm just what condition it is in. (all other safety practices being observed of course)
Now that being said, I shoot at a private range where it is standard practice that when a cold range is called, all firearms are to be unloaded, chambers & cylinders locked open, and firearms placed on the tables before anyone advances past the firing line. This gives everyone a good visual of the firearms that they are unloaded without touching them.

[Hank Dodge]

Posts like the one starting this thread really do scare me. SAFETY FIRST.....that's all that matters. A visual and tactile verification that the weapon is unloaded should be standard practice for any shooter leaving the line. The dropping of the hammer / striker should be insignificant due to the previous action of clearing the weapon. I'm not opposed to this by any means; however, if a round goes off when you do pull that trigger, you have grossly neglected your responsibilities as a shooter.

The best and most positive SAFETY out there is the one between your ears......USE IT!!!


Hank

[Hoser]

Originally Posted by Hank Dodge

... The dropping of the hammer / striker should be insignificant due to the previous action of clearing the weapon....however, if a round goes off when you do pull that trigger, you have grossly neglected your responsibilities as a shooter.

1+

[El Gato]

I appreciate the imput here... as previously stated I was interested in the perspective of the forum... It is easy to decide "my way or the highway" when you are isolated in your own little world... that is why we train with others in the industry and outside of our community...

You may realize this already but I suggested to SWMBO she start this thread...I for one have grown to to appreciate the vigor with which issues on this forum are approached... Safety issues are important.

[El Gato]

too many clicks of the mouse

[1buba]

Originally Posted by El Gato

It appears no person can pinpoint a training guideline or written safety practice that would dictate the trigger be pulled. Tension on the spring etc. is common reason to "drop the hammer" etc. What I need to do, besides get a life, is make sure I'm not missing anything here. A "practice" being a practice that has been done for years, might in fact have solid reasons behind it, yet it should be re-assessed ... if we are engaging in safety practices, we should take a fresh look at them periodically to insure there remains a rationale for the practice... and fine tune the practice etc....

I have always used safety violations, which did not endanger others, as an opportunity to capitalize on the teachable moment in that persons life. I don't yell at clients or use profanity... but I will pull someone off and try to use the moment to help them become better shooters, more safe shooters. SWMBO and I run large classes on our ranges and we have endeavored to tighten up the safety on the line... this is Kern after all and the local shooting range has few rules other than don't go forward of the firing line... shoot as fast and as often as you wish...it is a "cold" range...etc....IN fact it has only been the last few years that a shooting range as a business is financially tenable... when I was a kid folks just drove a few miles outside of town and shot in the foothills... or maybe at the club or some other informal area... this attitude can be a little too laid back for us and we have had numerous discussions on making things safer... SWMBO is, thankfully, a real stickler for safety... having not grown up around guns she does not suffer from the old "familiarity breeds contempt" syndrome... whereas I having grown up around firearms I have a tendency to be a bit too "relaxed"... I appreciate the imput....

In re: to the bolded area above...

I think the response to an AD probably has to do with the guy handling the gun and his attitude. The only few that i've seen, the guys probably should have been flogged in the public square, but I'm guessing you've seen guys that were very contrite.