Use Of Sight Shooting In Close Quarters Gunfights

[Keith92555]

Originally Posted by RomanDad

I begin shooting while the gun is still in the holster, and dont stop until everything standing in the vicinity is dead.

I like it, sounds like someone who has Marine Corps training.

[El Gato]

Originally Posted by Keith92555

Looks like 5shot just got a helluva beatdown delivered by CCWInstructor, El Gato, libertarian, swdr, X-ffdo, and gr8fatman. Can he possibly come back from this one?? I DON'T THINK SO!!

I think if he had started out his post emphasizing the importance of training (a la X-ffdo's post) he may have gotten a little respect. I am sure that a lot of the training goes out the window when the bullets are flying, but practice, practice, practice will allow you to revert to your training in stressful situations. I will continue sight shooting practice because that is all I've ever done, I was taught it in the Marines, and it has been proven by generations of Marines.

Not that there isn't any merit to 5shot's method. But all of us have seen the videos of police shoot-outs where 20-50 shots are fired and 1 or 2 bullets hit the mark. There can't be any doubt among us that if just one of the cops or BGs in these situations had taken the extra 1/10 of a second to AIM THE GUN, the gunfight would have ended much, much sooner.

5shot, you should not start your posts by touting your method and bashing all other methods of shooting. It only demeans your standing on this forum.

Oh... I don't know... he did say we might find the topic interesting... as in Chinese interesting... or as in the internet is interesting... or as in gee look the whole wall is moving no that's just the cochroaches what started moving when the door opened officer interesting or.....

[NikNak]

Originally Posted by 5shot

Here's a link to a new article of mine that you may find of interest.

http://www.pointshooting.com/0ssmyth.htm

Feel free to copy/print/share/post it as you like.

I thought it was bad form and even discouraged to "self-promote" on this forum.

I prefer a lively discussion of theory, rather than self promotion feigning as theory discussion.

[El Gato]

Originally Posted by NikNak

I thought it was bad form and even discouraged to "self-promote" on this forum.

I prefer a lively discussion of theory, rather than self promotion feigning as theory discussion.

Ok....
I smell whatcher cookin'....

[akulahawk]

I watched the video a couple times. The security guard saw the threat early. He drew his weapon early. He waited for the right moment and when he rounded the corner, he extended his arms into an isoceles triangle and started firing... Was he using the sights? I can't say. I wasn't him. Clearly though, the security guard's weapon appeared to be at roughly eye level and indexed on the robber well enough to get good hits. After taking at least one shot, the security guard continued to his left and kept the weapon indexed on the robber as the robber went down and the security guard moved to his left... I would also imagine that the security guard fired his weapon the way he was likely trained... with his right index finger. You can see that he's holding it in his right hand early on in the video.

The box that was on the floor was knocked down from the shelf by the robber...

I'm not a firearms instructor... I'm a Paramedic who has a good understanding of human kinesthetics and motor development.

[5shot]

Never said "my" method is the only one. I thinks it's better, but everyone is welcome to choose their own poison.

.........

As to fighting like you train, I think that is from past history when all training was done in a formal range setting.

As to equating training and fighting, the NYPD tried to but could not find a connection between range performance and on the street performance. BTW, they were trained in Sight Shooting.

And per the SureSite article: "It is an acknowledged fact that very few gunfight survivors ever remember seeing their sights at all during a life-threatening encounter. In other words, regardless of the amount of practice using the sights at the target range, the vast majority of shootout survivors are unable to see their sights when faced with life-threatening stress. One study found that when faced with stress, '93% of officers focused on the threat, not the weapon, and 88% of the officers resorted to binocular vision.'”

In a real CQB situation, your heart rate will go over 200, so you will lose your fine and complex motor skills and your near vision, so you will be unable to see the sights or coordinate placing them correctly on the target, and you trigger pulling dexterity will also go bye bye.

That's what the experts say, not me.

You Sight Shooting true believers can bring this to a swift close by bringing forth the beef, as in: where is it?

There should be tons of examples and pics and videos of SS being used to save the day.

The question is WHERE ARE THEY?

Guess it's No beef, just chicken and turkey.

Not being mean. Just asking a reasonable question, since you apparently want me to risk my life doing something that you say will work, but for which there is no proof.

I would like to believe in flying saucers 2, but I'll defer signing up for the UFO club until I see a small formation of them flying over low and slow, or see a video of just that splashed all over the news channels and the web.

Thank you for all of your responses, and have a happy, lively and safe 4th.

[swdr]

Originally Posted by 5shot

You Sight Shooting true believers can bring this to a swift close by bringing forth the beef, as in: where is it?

There should be tons of examples and pics and videos of SS being used to save the day.

The question is WHERE ARE THEY?

Guess it's No beef, just chicken and turkey.

Not being mean. Just asking a reasonable question, since you apparently want me to risk my life doing something that you say will work, but for which there is no proof.

I would like to believe in flying saucers 2, but I'll defer signing up for the UFO club until I see a small formation of them flying over low and slow, or see a video of just that splashed all over the news channels and the web.

No, actually, it is you with your quote of "scientific studies" that have proven the "experts", as you scare-quoted them, "wrong" that, as you say, "can bring this to a swift close by bringing forth the beef".

So, the question is, as you say, "WHERE ARE THEY"?

What's the matter? Cat got your tongue? Is that why you decided to hide behind another unsavory polemic and tried to push the burden of proof for your unusual claim off of yourself and onto everyone else?

I take it that you can't switch out of sleaze mode where your pet theories are concerned. Too bad. Given your stated credentials, I actually thought you had the potential to act like an honest and upright citizen. Instead, you decide that a taunt about "flying saucers" is appropriate.

Best of luck on a different website more to your childish approach to discussing firearms.

[huna koa]

Originally Posted by 5shot

Never said "my" method is the only one. I thinks it's better, but everyone is welcome to choose their own poison.

.........

As to fighting like you train, I think that is from past history when all training was done in a formal range setting.

As to equating training and fighting, the NYPD tried to but could not find a connection between range performance and on the street performance. BTW, they were trained in Sight Shooting.

And per the SureSite article: "It is an acknowledged fact that very few gunfight survivors ever remember seeing their sights at all during a life-threatening encounter. In other words, regardless of the amount of practice using the sights at the target range, the vast majority of shootout survivors are unable to see their sights when faced with life-threatening stress. One study found that when faced with stress, '93% of officers focused on the threat, not the weapon, and 88% of the officers resorted to binocular vision.'”

In a real CQB situation, your heart rate will go over 200, so you will lose your fine and complex motor skills and your near vision, so you will be unable to see the sights or coordinate placing them correctly on the target, and you trigger pulling dexterity will also go bye bye.

That's what the experts say, not me.

You Sight Shooting true believers can bring this to a swift close by bringing forth the beef, as in: where is it?

There should be tons of examples and pics and videos of SS being used to save the day.

The question is WHERE ARE THEY?

Guess it's No beef, just chicken and turkey.

Not being mean. Just asking a reasonable question, since you apparently want me to risk my life doing something that you say will work, but for which there is no proof.

I would like to believe in flying saucers 2, but I'll defer signing up for the UFO club until I see a small formation of them flying over low and slow, or see a video of just that splashed all over the news channels and the web.

Thank you for all of your responses, and have a happy, lively and safe 4th.

..and the lives of innocents around you in a gunfight are more important than any method/style; whatever you're comfortable with and whatever works to stop the threat[s] is all that matters. In a life threatening circumstance, there are no rules and regulations, only the basic human instinct to survive,and what you will do without the process of thought is known only to the one who lives to share ... and only if she/he wants to talk about it; and even that will be a basic blurry vision until the mind clears and focuses on what really happened. Those that have taken the life of another human in self defense speak very little of methods/style if they say anything at all. Most are just glad to be alive and keep the rest to themselves and their loved ones and the closest of friends. My opinion is just that, only mine and no one elses; it is good to be here on earth and breathing, and to be a free man.

[Poogsdad]

5shot, I have tried to stay out of this because you have already received inputs from a large group of people who not only know what they are talking about, but in some cases, have also been there, done that, and lived to talk about it.

Something that has been alluded to by all of the "Sight Shooting Advocates" (I am also one of them) is body mechanics, and indexing. Specifically focusing on the front sight as most of us advocate is a fine motor skill that may or may not be used or remembered in a fire fight, however, body mechanics and indexing are gross motor skills that directly support effective use of your sights.

When you train to consistently present your weapon in the same way culminating with the sight line of the weapon and the eye line of the shooter coming together and a sharp focus on the front sight, you are practicing and developing Gross and Fine motor skills. The gross motor skills will dominate when under stress and the the fine motor skills will be compromised to a greater degree. The fine motor skills will still come into play, however.

In the majority of instances when a Police Officer or Soldier was required to use their weapon and did not remember using the sights they were found to have still brought the sight line to the eye line and indexed their weapon as they had been trained to do. Just because they did not remember focusing on the front sight or even achieving a "Flash Sight Picture" does not mean they did not actually do so.

We welcome dissenting opinions here. they are healthy and contribute to the value of CalCCW.com. However, when your opinions are counter to those of the majority as well as those of real world, bona fide, Subject Matter Experts (SMEs), continuing to argue your opinion is counter productive, both to you and CalCCW.com.

Please take this post as the constructive criticism it is meant to be.

I am not attacking you or your opinion, if it works for you and you are comfortable in using it, then by all means continue to do so. However, please do not continue to argue against the majority opinion of proven SMEs who have been, done that, and survived to talk about it.

Thanks and Welcome to CalCCW.com.

Poogsdad

[huna koa]

Originally Posted by Poogsdad

5shot, I have tried to stay out of this because you have already received inputs from a large group of people who not only know what they are talking about, but in some cases, have also been there, done that, and lived to talk about it.

Something that has been alluded to by all of the "Sight Shooting Advocates" (I am also one of them) is body mechanics, and indexing. Specifically focusing on the front sight as most of us advocate is a fine motor skill that may or may not be used or remembered in a fire fight, however, body mechanics and indexing are gross motor skills that directly support effective use of your sights.

When you train to consistently present your weapon in the same way culminating with the sight line of the weapon and the eye line of the shooter coming together and a sharp focus on the front sight, you are practicing and developing Gross and Fine motor skills. The gross motor skills will dominate when under stress and the the fine motor skills will be compromised to a greater degree. The fine motor skills will still come into play, however.

In the majority of instances when a Police Officer or Soldier was required to use their weapon and did not remember using the sights they were found to have still brought the sight line to the eye line and indexed their weapon as they had been trained to do. Just because they did not remember focusing on the front sight or even achieving a "Flash Sight Picture" does not mean they did not actually do so.

We welcome dissenting opinions here. they are healthy and contribute to the value of CalCCW.com. However, when your opinions are counter to those of the majority as well as those of real world, bona fide, Subject Matter Experts (SMEs), continuing to argue your opinion is counter productive, both to you and CalCCW.com.

Please take this post as the constructive criticism it is meant to be.

I am not attacking you or your opinion, if it works for you and you are comfortable in using it, then by all means continue to do so. However, please do not continue to argue against the majority opinion of proven SMEs who have been, done that, and survived to talk about it.

Thanks and Welcome to CalCCW.com.

Poogsdad

..you are an Officer and a Gentleman; with or without a uniform.

[Poogsdad]

Originally Posted by huna koa

..you are an Officer and a Gentleman; with or without a uniform.

Thank you, huna koa.

I appreciate the kind words.

Poogsdad

[X-ffdo]

Those last two postings by huna koa and poogsdad just put the bullet on target!!

Yeah...nice to breath that fresh air!!
You two guys have captured the understanding of the experience. That is why we keep training, to survive!!

[huna koa]

Originally Posted by Poogsdad

Thank you, huna koa.

I appreciate the kind words.

Poogsdad

... and all those who are reading and standing down/holding ground; are more than welcome. Real life is more than just winning; it is understanding the cost and willing to pay for it in the loss of life and blood. I say no more, and I go to my room in silent respect of those who did what had to be done to the best of their understanding at that moment and time of conflict and instinctive survival.

[5shot]

Thanks Poogsdad.

...........

You can copy the video and then import it to windows movie maker which came with my pc, and then run through it frame by frame a few time and you will not, I think, that the good guy's gun is about chest high and not up a eye level. Here is alink to more info on it on my site that shows several of the pics: Florida Shootout

Here's a pic of the grip used and it gives you an automatic and correct FSP. just point-n-pull, point-n-pull. If you want to check out the sights to see if they are aligned properly just look down your arm.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Poogsdad

Just because they did not remember focusing on the front sight or even achieving a "Flash Sight Picture" does not mean they did not actually do so.
Poogsdad

Not firearms related, as I'm still waiting for my CCW and so don't carry but... It illustrates this point.

My girlfriend and I were walking through San Francisco after a concert, going home on the train. It was late, yep, but the bars were still open and the streets were not too deserted, so I felt reasonably confident that nothing would happen. I was wrong, something did. I remember the three men approaching us threatening my girlfriend with "showing her what real cock is like" essentially, and two of them reaching out to grab her and me while the other unzipped his pants. I remember yelling, shoving her behind me, backing away, the hand clamping down on my arm so hard I thought it would crush my bones. I then remember crouching in front of her, my two knives in my hands dripping blood, and two men on the ground and the third cowering ten paces away.

I'm sure I held to my training, because all three survived, more or less, but all three were in no shape to hurt my girlfriend or me at the end. I was unharmed, phsyically, except the bruises on my arms. Gotta be the training, yep, because there's no other way for that outcome to have happened otherwise! Knives are awful weapons that do a tremendous amount of damage very fast and are very hard to control, I've learned. But I don't remember using the training. It just happened.

I suspect it would be the same if ever I had to use my CCW in a similar situation. I'd use the sights, as I am being trained to, but I doubt I'd remember that I had done so.