OC lesson learned???

[AF_int1n0]

OK this may very well get me flamed and possibly booted but I have to get this off my chest.


I believe that there is a lesson to be learned from what happened in OC.
You lost your good (issuing) sheriff and had him replaced with an Elitist turd from LA. I know alot of you are going to be losing your permits.
I know most of you are saying, well we'll replace her in 2010, but then what? What happens if you don't replace her.
What happens if you get what happened in Sac with a Sheriff that promises permits but then lies. I think what happened in OC is good reason to unify for Statewide CCW.

I was looking at your CCW list from 07 and you have 40,000 permits. Total, Statewide total. I'm pretty sure Tampa has more permits in that city..
Those consist of a couple of counties that give em out to anyone. (equally)
And a hand full of elites in most every other county. The feeling I get from this forum is there are two types of people here.. OC permit holders, LA, Bay Area, etc. Non permit holders and a couple of NorCal permit holders. The LA, Bay Area, Etc. are screwed because they will never go shall issue without State wide legislation..Those in counties lucky enough to have Shall issue CCW don't worry about State wide CCW because "they got theirs" So they discuss the best 1911 for a trip to get sushi. Sadly those folks probably need them less than a lot of folks in this state.


The point is without fixing this issue at the State level, your rights are forever at the mercy of some low level elected schmuck. Those of you lucky enough to have a permit; Stop screwing your neighbor!! I know you got yours, yes you totally rock!! It feels good to be a citizen (thats the way alot of Americans feel. But realize what happened in OC can happen anywhere in the State, and at the whim of some guy, you don't know.

I know I will never have a permit.. (Even If I lived in a moderately CCW friendly county) But, I have at a maximum of 17 months left here. (less if I can work a 365 with follow on..) But it kills me to see this infighting amongst like minded people.

That's all I have.. I'm going to don my Flame suit now.

[Harry Carry]

Nothing too flameworthy in my opinion. Yes, in OC, we've had it relatively good. But by pushing for one CCW at a time, we have increased awareness.

Now we're faced with taking a more activist approach. It's not going to be easy, but, hey, we've got just as much time as our opponents.

As for the statewide change, the only realistic way that California becomes anything close to shall issue in the near future (5-10 years) is through litigation. And a case in one county CAN have an impact on that.

So, we're fighting the county now. But that does not mean any positive outcome will be limited to just our own locale.

Originally Posted by AF_int1n0

OK this may very well get me flamed and possibly booted but I have to get this off my chest.


I believe that there is a lesson to be learned from what happened in OC.
You lost your good (issuing) sheriff and had him replaced with an Elitist turd from LA. I know alot of you are going to be losing your permits.
I know most of you are saying, well we'll replace her in 2010, but then what? What happens if you don't replace her.
What happens if you get what happened in Sac with a Sheriff that promises permits but then lies. I think what happened in OC is good reason to unify for Statewide CCW.

I was looking at your CCW list from 07 and you have 40,000 permits. Total, Statewide total. I'm pretty sure Tampa has more permits in that city..
Those consist of a couple of counties that give em out to anyone. (equally)
And a hand full of elites in most every other county. The feeling I get from this forum is there are two types of people here.. OC permit holders, LA, Bay Area, etc. Non permit holders and a couple of NorCal permit holders. The LA, Bay Area, Etc. are screwed because they will never go shall issue without State wide legislation..Those in counties lucky enough to have Shall issue CCW don't worry about State wide CCW because "they got theirs" So they discuss the best 1911 for a trip to get sushi. Sadly those folks probably need them less than a lot of folks in this state.


The point is without fixing this issue at the State level, your rights are forever at the mercy of some low level elected schmuck. Those of you lucky enough to have a permit; Stop screwing your neighbor!! I know you got yours, yes you totally rock!! It feels good to be a citizen (thats the way alot of Americans feel. But realize what happened in OC can happen anywhere in the State, and at the whim of some guy, you don't know.

I know I will never have a permit.. (Even If I lived in a moderately CCW friendly county) But, I have at a maximum of 17 months left here. (less if I can work a 365 with follow on..) But it kills me to see this infighting amongst like minded people.

That's all I have.. I'm going to don my Flame suit now.

[hygyliac]

AF_int1n0 I don't think that you have to worry about being flamed. The Forum's goal is just that . . . "one CCW at a time within the the boundaries of the existing system." CCWI, the staffers, the FMs/SMs and members all try to give accurate updated answers at all questions regardless of what county the person who is asking the question comes from. But in the words of PoogsDad "sometimes the answers are not what you may want to hear."
Yes Orange County have come upon a difficult period. It will have to be taken from us, we give up ground grudgingly.

[SierraNevadaCCW]

Screw it. (I have a ccw)

[Poogsdad]

AF_int1n0 I agree with your assessment that disregarding the "Shall Issue" counties on one extreem and the "No way in hell" counties on the other, the problem with many of the rest of the counties is "Apathy".

Those people who desire a CCW in those counties, for the most part have them, but the remainder simply don't know that CCWs are issued or do not care. This is certainly the case with my county.

You are also correct that what happened in Orange County could happen in any California County. In my opinion the most effective long term solution to this problem is to develop awareness of CCW and the inequeties that exist throughout the State regarding CCW.

I support the citizens of Orange County in their fight, not just because they are good people and it is the right thing to do, but because I believe that the enhanced awareness that will come about as a result will benefit the entire state.

Thank You for your contributions and Thank You for your Service.

You are appreciated.

[sholling]

One of the problems the that voters face is "Brad Gates' Law". Up until OC Sheriff Brad Gates faced a serious challenge from Judge Bobby Youngblood any citizen had the right to run for that office. Using sheriffs detectives to harass the judge's campaign staff, though moderately effective, became a public embarrassment and so Gates made sure that he would never face another serious challenge by getting his cronies in Sacramento to limit challengers to those carrying a badge. This is analogous to limiting presidential (commander in chief) candidates to current general officers. Civilians lose any semblance of control. As we saw in Corona's administration the mere act of running for office against him was declared insubordination and grounds for demotion. As a direct result these offices become sheriff-for-life positions. This no "Walking Tall" law needs to become a target as a step back toward democracy and civilian control of law enforcement because as it stands I think you will find it almost impossible to unseat her royal sheriffness.

[/soapbox]

[spc]

Having California "Shall Issue" is the ideal goal. This site has been approaching CCW one permit at a time for interested individuals because that is something we can do NOW. By helping present the information and encouragement we have increased interest on a state wide basis for those who have a desire to carry.

Of course there are counties where it is no way in he** to obtain a permit, and then the OC program has been BOMBED by a new Sheriff. This site was originated primarily by OC folks and hence the very high interest regarding the new issues in that county. What happened in OC could happen to any of us throughout the state.

What happens in OC after the new Sheriff 'retires' could help set precedent for the rest of the state. The activism stirred up by these new issues in OC could get the rest of the state more informed and interested in our 2nd amendment rights, or lack thereof.

Yes California has it's issues and we are doing what we can to make things the best we can within the current laws.

Your post deserves no flames. You bring up good points for discussion.

spc

[sealbeach]

Although we did have it good in OC, we were not smug or arrogant about it, we started this forum to push harder for MORE CCW's for everyone, and we now have to take it up a notch (or more).

My favorite line from your post: "...an Elitist turd from LA..." classic!

[1buba]

I have to disagree in part.

What happened in OC was basically done by fiat (sp?)

The sherrif was not removed through an election, or even due process. The new sherrif was not installed via the normal process, but by an election.

Our problem in CA, as in most of the country, IMHO, is we have stupid people voting. OC had done very well over the last 12 years or so in all areas - it took time, but they were improving.

so, bottom line - just as each vote is important, we cannot blame OC because Sac county or LA county doesn't issue. it take all the voters. IF a statewide innititive were on the ballot, i would bet my LIFE that our friends in OC would campaign and vote for it.

[sholling]

Originally Posted by 1buba

so, bottom line - just as each vote is important, we cannot blame OC because Sac county or LA county doesn't issue. it take all the voters. IF a statewide innititive were on the ballot, i would bet my LIFE that our friends in OC would campaign and vote for it.

When it's against the law for anybody to run against a seated incumbent your vote doesn't do you a heck of a lot of good.

[clovis27]

Speaking as someone from Fresno County, I do care what happens in the rest of the state. My understanding is that Orange County was the largest population county in the state that would issue permits in any significant amount. Effectively loosing that county is a significant loss for our position in that it will decrease the number of permit holders. That in turn make it more of an unknown to those who do not know about CCW and how rare it is that there’s any problem. Many that I know up here think that an area with a significant number of CCW’s would be like the “Old West” while not knowing that many counties up here will issue them in pretty substantial numbers to varying degrees. They don’t realize they have a decent chance of knowing someone that has a permit.

At this point, I have a very hard time seeing California going state-wide shall-issue, especially in light of all the anti-gun legislation that the State keeps passing. I think if it were put to a state-wide vote, or legislative process for that matter, that all permits would be outlawed that law would probably get passed easily. Even if state-wide shall-issue CCW passed, I could see nearly every private establishment making themselves off limits to CCW and the new law giving them the legal right to do so similar to a Texas 30.06 sign. Regrettably, I think we are in a take what we can get phase. Orange County was a model for how it could work. Sadly, it looks like those days are over, at least for now.

To all my OC friends- stay strong, stay organized, and try to get your new Sheriff somewhere she belongs (New York or Chicago may good places for her to start looking).

[AF_int1n0]

Originally Posted by sealbeach

Although we did have it good in OC, we were not smug or arrogant about it, we started this forum to push harder for MORE CCW's for everyone, and we now have to take it up a notch (or more).

My favorite line from your post: "...an Elitist turd from LA..." classic!

Seal Beach,
I did not intend to call you Smug or Arrogant, but what happened in OC highlights that everyones eggs are in the same basket. This could happen anywhere in the State for any number of reasons (car accidents, illness, legal battles) are you sure the next guy isn't going to be BACA Jr., Fong light? . I wish I had the money for TV advertising.. The sooner you get change at the state level, the better. This would be a perfect time for Cal NRA to bring this up.

What happens in OC after the new Sheriff 'retires' could help set precedent for the rest of the state. The activism stirred up by these new issues in OC could get the rest of the state more informed and interested in our 2nd amendment rights, or lack thereof.

I'm glad other folks are thinking the same thing.
It sucks that OC had to go through this ordeal, but hopefully at the end of this tunnel California will be the better for it.

[spc]

The folks in OC are standing strong and will have an excellent opportunity to prevail by the next election. We all need to do whatever we can to help our OC friends turn things around and make the right of self defense available to them again for reasonable Good Cause in the future.

spc

[sholling]

I hope you're right even though I've moved away form OC (born and raised). But to the best of my knowledge no incumbent sheriff has lost an election anywhere in SoCal in decades. Hopefully you have a great candidate in mind but with candidacy closed to the general public it's going to be tough to find somebody that can defeat her sheriffness.

[CCWInstructor]

Originally Posted by sholling

But to the best of my knowledge no incumbent sheriff has lost an election anywhere in SoCal in decades.

You are almost 100% correct. No ELECTED incumbent sheriff has ever lost the election except Theo Lacy.