Bonded for Liability

[BallTurret]

Once a CCW permit is issued and it is legal to carry, is it prudent to post a bond for liability?

[YankeeDog]

I have always had personal liability insurance. I was in a business in the past that people loved to sue for any kind of bs. I carried $1M and have recently increased it to $2M. If you own anything of value or are lucky enough to have a decent bank account and equity in property, I would suggest that you have PLI. Whether it covers you in a CCW occurance would remain to be seen. As CCWI has said in his trailers, "An armed society is a polite society".
YankeeDog in Surf City

[OCRancher]

This subject has been discussed on other threads and other forums. I suggest checking your personal property policy such as a homeowners policy, and also see if you can find an umbrella policy that will cover you for such. IIRC, Farmers Insurance has a HO policy that does not exclude CCW use, if used legally. (Legally as defined by the penal code for both CCW usage and and any potential shooting)

Note, if you used the gun illegally or were adjudicated later to have shot and injured/killed another in violation of the PC, you may not then be covered for any subsequent civil suit(s).

[DParker]

Go for an Umbrella Liability policy. Most require you to have all the policies "under" it with the same company. Home, auto, boat, etc....the umbrella will then raise your liability coverage up to your policy amount. Should be at least $2 million for most folks. Is a very reasonable cost with most companies.

I have confirmed that my policy with Allied Nationwide does cover self defense shootings. It is something you do want to confirm.

[BallTurret]

Thanks for the info folks... I'll be shopping for insurance.

[SierraNevadaCCW]

One thing I learned when I got in my 5 car traffic accident, was that the higher insurance limits you have, the better...and I'm sure that applies to any insurance. I carry 2 million on every vehicle since that accident.

The umbrella for ccw thing is probably a good idea....it may keep you from being sued via settlement or save you later if you do.

[newshooterinca]

In addition to the insurance, protecting your assets is very smart. It's worth the investment you'll pay to a good asset protection attorney if you have anything worth protecting (and most of us do). Lawyers won't take on a case against you if they run an asset check and learn that they won't collect a dime in case of a judgment against you.

[wceviper]

Today I asked my insurance agent (Farmers) if my home owners insurance covered justified shooting if someone were to break into my home and create fear of death or harm to myself or my family, would I be covered?

I was told that my particular policy would not cover because if a shot was fired, it would be intentional, not accidental (which i guess accidental would be covered?!?!). If I make the decision to shoot to protect my family and myself, then its intentional. And if the criminal intentionally fires a shot, do I not have coverage?

So my obvious next question was; is there a policy that will provide me some sort of coverage, whether or not it is medical coverage (In case the intruder lives) or legal coverage should I get sued by the intruder or his family.

They didn't know of any policy specific for that type of coverage. I asked about umbrella, and they weren't aware of a policy.

Is there a name, policy number, policy type, that I could refer them to investigate?

I personally believe that once a crime is in progress, the person (and family of that person) committing that crime should lose all legal rights to sue the victim for anything! In theory, a burglar could sue the home over for stress and blah blah blah because he had a firearm pointed at them.

As a criminal the only thing you should have a right to do is to remain silent, have an attorney, and a fair trial, nothing more!

[1buba]

Originally Posted by OCRancher

This subject has been discussed on other threads and other forums. I suggest checking your personal property policy such as a homeowners policy, and also see if you can find an umbrella policy that will cover you for such. IIRC, Farmers Insurance has a HO policy that does not exclude CCW use, if used legally. (Legally as defined by the penal code for both CCW usage and and any potential shooting)

Note, if you used the gun illegally or were adjudicated later to have shot and injured/killed another in violation of the PC, you may not then be covered for any subsequent civil suit(s).

My business liability insurance actually has had a disclaimer for the last 10 years or so that basically states, if we're found guilty of a crime, they won't cover it.

[OCRancher]

wceviper, ask a broker, not an agent, to read that Farmers' policy to you. The agent is wrong.

[More Cowbell]

I personally asked this question of higher ups at Farmers before adding a personal umbrella policy to my portfolio. Here is the response from a VP in the claims operations section:

Unfortunately, I can not provide you with a definitive answer. The
difficulty with this sort of hypothetical is that the facts and
circumstances surrounding any claim will vary and give rise to different
conclusions. The exclusionary language that this insured is concerned with
is the same in our policies. It is as follows:

Applying to Coverage E and F – Personal Liability and Medical Payments To
Others
We do not cover bodily injury, property damage or personal injury which:

3. is either
a. caused intentionally by or at the direction of an insured; or
b. results from any occurrence caused by an intentional act of any
insured where the results are reasonably foreseeable.

In general, if a homeowner injures an intruder in the act of self defense
or the defense of another person it is considered to have legal
justification and coverage for their defense will be triggered.

Presumption that insured's action which causes harm to victim was intended
to cause harm does not apply to language of “intentional acts” exclusion
clause in liability policy when insured acts in self-defense or with some
other justification; in such cases, question of intent must be resolved by
determination of basic purpose or desire underlying insured's conduct. Fire
Insurance Exchange v. Berray 694 P2d 191, AZ (1984) Act committed in
self-defense should not be considered “intentional act” within meaning of
exclusion from coverage under liability policy if insured “expected or
intended” bodily injury; disapproving Lockhart v. Allstate Insurance Co.,
119 Ariz. 150, 579 P.2d 1120 (1978).

If they are determined not to have acted in self defense or to have
escalated the incident, it will be considered to be without legal
justification or intentional and the exclusion will apply.

Insured's act of aiming and shooting gun at victim from a few feet away,
without legal justification, was inherently harmful and wrongful act, and,
thus, no separate proof of preconceived design to inflict injury was
required to determine whether act was “willful act” statutorily excluded
from coverage of homeowners' policy. West's Ann.Cal.Ins.Code § 533.

I hope that this is helpful. I am sorry that I can not provide anything
more definitive as each claim is different and needs to be judged by its
own set of facts.


In essence, if the shoot is legally justified (may be after adjudication) you will be covered. The actual policy which I was provided contains language which supports the above e-mail I received.

[armus]

wceviper,

You may want to look into the Self Defense Coverage offered to members of the NRA:

NRA Insurance - Share the Belief, Share the Benefits - Excess Personal Liability: Self-Defense

It's a bargain for around $260/year.


"Self-Defense Coverage

Introducing new protection for defending yourself in the courts and in your home.

An exclusive offer for NRA members only.

Now there is insurance available to back up NRA members who need extra protection not found in most homeowners' policies.

The new Self-Defense coverage is a rider to the Excess Personal Liability coverage. It provides civil defense and liability and criminal defense reimbursement if you are involved in an act of self-defense.

What is Covered

Provides coverage up to the limit selected for bodily injury or property damage caused by an act of self-defense.
Cost of civil suit defense is provided in addition to the limit of liability for bodily injury and property damage.
Criminal Defense Reimbursement for alleged criminal actions involving self-defense when you are acquitted of such criminal charges or the charges are dropped.

Liability Limit Options

$100,000 Combined Single Limit with $50,000 criminal defense reimbursement sub-limit
$250,000 Combined Single Limit with $50,000 criminal defense reimbursement sub-limit

Click here to apply for Self-Defense coverage today!

Note: The above descriptions are a summary and not complete descriptions of all terms, exclusions and conditions in the master policy on file at NRA Headquarters."

[BallTurret]

I brought this up to my CCW instructor this past weekend. He said that most Homeowner's liability policies are written so loosely, that don't expect to be covered if something happens. He suggested (and subscribes) to the NRA insurance. He went on to say that if you are in a shooting incident, make darn sure it's justifiable homicide. This way you are not criminally liable. However, a civil suit may surface from the victim's family... In any case, the judge would consider you being cleared of the criminal charge, making it hard for the civil charge to stick. Geez, and all I want to do is protect myself and family.

[OCRancher]

I have read now three major insurance companies HO policies (AAA, State Farm, Farmers). They all read the same as to the offer of a defense and coverage for a civil suit on a justified self defense killing. Only one stated that an adjudication finding no wrongdoing by the HO policy holder was needed prior to defending the civil suit.

[1buba]

Originally Posted by BallTurret

I brought this up to my CCW instructor this past weekend. He said that most Homeowner's liability policies are written so loosely, that don't expect to be covered if something happens. He suggested (and subscribes) to the NRA insurance. He went on to say that if you are in a shooting incident, make darn sure it's justifiable homicide. This way you are not criminally liable. However, a civil suit may surface from the victim's family... In any case, the judge would consider you being cleared of the criminal charge, making it hard for the civil charge to stick. Geez, and all I want to do is protect myself and family.

I'm actually thinking seriously about the NRA option. I have heard they are good for this purpose in particular. Don't know it for a fact as I haven't had a chance to read through their info yet. It IS high on my list of to-do's though.