When does a gun become a gun?

[CCWInstructor]

Originally Posted by OIS

Right on Steve! Now that's a proper citation.

Thanks again!

Here is State Penal Code also:

12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be
interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol,"
"revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."
(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to
be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a
projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

(c) As used in Sections 12021, 12021.1, 12070, 12071, 12072,
12073, 12078, 12101, and 12801 of this code, and Sections 8100, 8101,
and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, the term "firearm"
includes the frame or receiver of the weapon.
(d) For the purposes of Sections 12025 and 12031, the term
"firearm" also shall include any rocket, rocket propelled projectile
launcher, or similar device containing any explosive or incendiary
material whether or not the device is designed for emergency or
distress signaling purposes.
(e) For purposes of Sections 12070, 12071, and paragraph (8) of
subdivision (a), and subdivisions (b), (c), (d), and (f) of Section
12072, the term "firearm" does not include an unloaded firearm that
is defined as an "antique firearm" in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18
of the United States Code.

[Aurelius]

Well, I don't have a problem. I put my guns in the trunk on my own property, and unload them when I get to where I am going, which again is on private property, whether it is the indoor range parking lot, the outdoor range lot, or BLM land where the government expressly allows shooting to occur (its posted).
The alternative is, if you got your gun new, to just put a lock on the plastic carrying case it came in. At least the ones I bought came in cases...

[THE Gimper]

Originally Posted by Aurelius

Well, I don't have a problem. I put my guns in the trunk on my own property, and unload them when I get to where I am going, which again is on private property, whether it is the indoor range parking lot, the outdoor range lot, or BLM land where the government expressly allows shooting to occur (its posted).
The alternative is, if you got your gun new, to just put a lock on the plastic carrying case it came in. At least the ones I bought came in cases...

And as soon as you open your trunk, you no longer have a locked container. You now have a firearm in public, and you just violated the above reference Penal Code. The parking lot (even though it is private property) is an area that is readily accessible to the public. It is viewed as a public area in the eyes of the law.

[Rob P.]

Originally Posted by THE Gimper

And as soon as you open your trunk, you no longer have a locked container. You now have a firearm in public, and you just violated the above reference Penal Code. The parking lot (even though it is private property) is an area that is readily accessible to the public. It is viewed as a public area in the eyes of the law.

Not true!

If the hypothetical gun transporter has an UNLOADED firearm in the trunk (per the law) when he opens the trunk at the range he now has an UNLOADED firearm in an area where firearms are permitted to be discharged. That area would be unincorporated BLM land (per Aurelius' post). This is acceptable as the area would normally be used for the purposes of discharging firearms and the introduction of a firearm to that area would not be "abnormal" or prohibited as it is unincorporated.

To follow your analogy, the mere presence of a firearm at a shooting range would be illegal since it would entail having a LOADED firearm "in public" when shooting that firearm. Your analogy would also outlaw hunting. This is not supported by the language of the PC, common thought, or any precedent.

[Aurelius]

Yes I am aware of the judicial decisions stating that if you are on your own property that is "accessible to the public", i.e., unfenced, your are in "public" for the purposes of the Penal Code.
While I can certainly understand why the courts came up with this idea, I think it is logically indefensible. The mere fact that someone can enter the "curtilage" around your house does not convert it into "public" space for all purposes in my view. Here's one practical example. You hear a prowler outside trying to break into your garage/shed/house. If those areas are not within a fenced area of your property, carrying a firearm would necessarily be unlawful, notwithstanding the fact that you are on your own property and lawfully defending it from intruders. Ridiculous. I don't know about you, but I don't dial up 911 the moment I hear a strange sound in the middle of the nght. I investigate--armed.

And here's another one. Have you ever bought a new firearm, and walked out of the gun store with it? If it's not in a locked case, which I personally have never seen, you've broken the law! Balderdash! All the gun stores care about is that it is in a case, or if openly carried that it is unloaded and the breach is open when you enter the store. I have never been advised that I needed to buy a lock for a pistol case before I leave the store, or even that the gun has to be locked with the lock California requires you to buy(another sily law--even if the gun comes with one).

[CCWInstructor]

Your guys are cutting the hair to fine. A peace officer will cut it finer.

First on the range, you need to be out a outdoor range, not a indoor. In the public parking lot, you will have a problem.

You get a flat tire and open the trunk, you will have a problem.

You get pulled over, after recieving yout CDL, Registration, and insurance, you will be asked "do you have any guns, knives, weapons OR anything illegal I should know about" You say yes, I ask you to open the trunk. You will have a problem.

Do not answer with no illegal guns or knives, you didn't answer my question. YOU will have a very big problem then.

[THE Gimper]

Originally Posted by Aurelius

And here's another one. Have you ever bought a new firearm, and walked out of the gun store with it? If it's not in a locked case, which I personally have never seen, you've broken the law! Balderdash! All the gun stores care about is that it is in a case, or if openly carried that it is unloaded and the breach is open when you enter the store. I have never been advised that I needed to buy a lock for a pistol case before I leave the store, or even that the gun has to be locked with the lock California requires you to buy(another sily law--even if the gun comes with one).

That's why I always either bring a padlock with me when I pick up a firearm from a dealer, or I use the cable lock that comes with the gun. I lock it up before I leave the store.

[Aurelius]

First on the range, you need to be out a outdoor range, not a indoor. In the public parking lot, you will have a problem.

You get a flat tire and open the trunk, you will have a problem.

You get pulled over, after recieving yout CDL, Registration, and insurance, you will be asked "do you have any guns, knives, weapons OR anything illegal I should know about" You say yes, I ask you to open the trunk. You will have a problem.

Do not answer with no illegal guns or knives, you didn't answer my question. YOU will have a very big problem then.

Why would anyone answer the question the officer asked, and why would anyone voluntarily pop the trunk? I know that many people do, but the fact of the matter is that you have the right to not incriminate yourself, and therefore do not have to answer the question. The assertion of constitutional rights, no matter what LEO may believe, does not constitute probable cause. Two, an officer must have probable cause that a crime has been committed before he can conduct a warrantless search of the trunk, or for that matter, of any part of the vehicle itself. REasonable suspicion is not enough. In several cases I looked up, the officer seeing the driver lean pver to put something under the set has been held to NOT be sufficient to establish probable cause of a SPECIFIC crime. The police cannot go o fishing expeditions.

[EM2]

Originally Posted by Aurelius

Why would anyone answer the question the officer asked, and why would anyone voluntarily pop the trunk? I know that many people do, but the fact of the matter is that you have the right to not incriminate yourself, and therefore do not have to answer the question. The assertion of constitutional rights, no matter what LEO may believe, does not constitute probable cause. Two, an officer must have probable cause that a crime has been committed before he can conduct a warrantless search of the trunk, or for that matter, of any part of the vehicle itself. REasonable suspicion is not enough. In several cases I looked up, the officer seeing the driver lean pver to put something under the set has been held to NOT be sufficient to establish probable cause of a SPECIFIC crime. The police cannot go o fishing expeditions.

Interesting, I had not given much thought to this until now but even if you have nothing to hid it still may be advisable to not answer the question on these grounds. How many times has it already been advised on this forum that when being questioned by law enforcement to not answer questions without a lawyer. Even the police themselves request (demand) union & legal representation before answering questions.

[paul0660]

but the fact of the matter is that you have the right to not incriminate yourself, and therefore do not have to answer the question.

Exactly.....there go your 5th and 4th amendment rights in an eyeblink otherwise.

Another question.....does the fenced yard HAVE to have gate, does it have to be closed, or does it have to be closed and locked?

[Keith92555]

This thread has gone sooooooo far afield from the OP.

Oh...and...

Originally Posted by Aurelius

Balderdash!

Was I the only one who caught that?? Aurelius needs to control his language before he gets banned!!

[EM2]

Originally Posted by Keith92555

This thread has gone sooooooo far afield from the OP.

OK then back on point

Originally Posted by OIS

What if a citizen (Non CCW) wishes to transport a handgun in one's vehicle and does not want to go through the hassle of "Locked Boxes?" If one disassembles [field strips] the weapon and puts the parts in a cloth bag on the front seat of the vehicle . . . is that legal?

How is this possibly LESS of a hassle than using a COM lock box?
Center Of Mass Central

[Rob P.]

Originally Posted by CCWInstructor

Your guys are cutting the hair to fine. A peace officer will cut it finer.

First on the range, you need to be out a outdoor range, not a indoor. In the public parking lot, you will have a problem.

You get a flat tire and open the trunk, you will have a problem.

You get pulled over, after recieving yout CDL, Registration, and insurance, you will be asked "do you have any guns, knives, weapons OR anything illegal I should know about" You say yes, I ask you to open the trunk. You will have a problem.

Do not answer with no illegal guns or knives, you didn't answer my question. YOU will have a very big problem then.

Not necessarily. Remember the law only prohibits a LOADED firearm in public. If the firearm is unloaded then it is not prohibited. If you are fixing your flat tire and the trunk is open then the gun is not being "transported" at that time since the vehicle is disabled. Thus it doesn't need to be locked up.

Further, if I am requested to open a locked container by the police, I cannot be charged with possessing a firearm in an "un" locked container. If I don't comply I am not breaking the law and if I do comply I am possibly breaking the law at the officers' request. This is especially true if the officer is requesting access in order to conduct a search.

Yes this is hair splitting. No I don't advocate doing this. Put it in a locking gun rug when transporting it without a CCW. Not only is this preferred but it protects the firearm from damage during transport too.

[Keith92555]

Originally Posted by EM2

OK then back on point




How is this possibly LESS of a hassle than using a COM lock box?
Center Of Mass Central

SERIOUSLY!!! The COM is what...30 bucks?? Isn't it worth that amount to avoid all the hassles so adequately illustrated on this thread? Nice catch EM2.

[EM2]

Originally Posted by Keith92555

SERIOUSLY!!! The COM is what...30 bucks?? Isn't it worth that amount to avoid all the hassles so adequately illustrated on this thread? Nice catch EM2.

Thanks, I use the COM box whenever I need to lock my handgun when I am away from home. Not very offen though because I carry everywhere I can legally.

By the way, it was on this site in another post almost two years ago where it was recommended and I bought one immediately. It works especially well when traveling by air and placed in the checked on baggage.