Loaded Magizines

Microstencil · #1 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 09:17 PM

You have your unloaded gun in a locked case in your car can you have a loaded magizine in a seperate locked case in your car or does the magazine need to be unloaded? I cannot get a straight answer from LEO.

**X-ffdo** · #2 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 09:19 PM

You're OK.

Microstencil · #3 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 09:29 PM

Lets build on this a little. I have a pick-up truck. Can my range bag be on the back seat locked?

**rycerz** · #4 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Microstencil

Lets build on this a little. I have a pick-up truck. Can my range bag be on the back seat locked?

I believe the rule is locked and out of immediate access..... also have it out of view as not to attract attention

Microstencil · #5 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 09:39 PM

I usally put it on the floor behind the drivers seat as this would be difficult to reach while driving. Since I do not have a shell this is the only place that I can put it.

cato · #6 (**permalink**) 07-14-2009, 03:09 PM

What is "loaded" in California? - Calguns.net

There is more info so check the link.

Quote:

FAQ first:

Yes, ammunition may be carried in the same container as the gun – loose ammunition or ammunition in ammo boxes does not make a gun loaded, because the ammunition is NOT “placed into a position from which it can be fired”.

Yes, you may transport loaded magazines and speed loaders, so long as they are not inserted into the magazine well or cylinder of the firearm. That does not make a gun loaded, because the ammunition carried that way is NOT “placed into a position from which it can be fired”.

No, a loaded magazine is not the same as a loaded weapon, and possession of a weapon and a loaded magazine for that weapon does not, necessarily, mean you have a loaded weapon.

Anyone who asserts something contrary to the above 3 points is simply wrong. That does not mean you cannot be arrested by uninformed or badly trained law enforcement, or charged with the crime of carrying a loaded weapon by an uninformed or politically motivated prosecutor. It does mean that, if it goes to court and you have good representation, the prosecution should lose on the law.

Your comfort level may lead you to do more than the law requires.

EXPLANATION:
California law has several usages of the term loaded in the Penal code and elsewhere.

The most common definition of loaded is from Penal Code 12031

Quote:

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

[Since this post concentrates on loaded, other parts of 12031 are omitted, including the definitions of other terms in (a)(1).]

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm;

except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

THIS 12031(g) DEFINITION HAS BEEN MODIFIED BY CASE LAW!!!

The case is People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99 available at this link.

The key paragraphs of the decision are these:

Quote:

The term "loaded" has a commonly understood meaning: "to put a load or charge in (a device or piece of equipment) a gun" or "to put a load on or in a carrier, device, or container; esp: to insert the charge or cartridge into the chamber of a firearm." (Webster's New Collegiate Dict. (1976) p. 674.) Under the commonly understood meaning of the term "loaded," a firearm is "loaded" when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired; the shotgun is not "loaded" if the shell or cartridge is stored elsewhere and not yet placed in a firing position. The shells here were placed in a separate storage compartment of the shotgun and were not yet "loaded" as the term is commonly understood.

There is nothing in Health and Safety Code section 11370.1 which indicates the Legislature did not intend to use the term "loaded" in its commonly understood meaning.

We note Penal Code section 12031 states it is defining the term "loaded" "for the purposes of this section" (Pen. Code, § 12031, subd. (g)); it does not state it is applicable to a Health and Safety Code offense nor does Health and Safety Code section 11370.1 refer to the Penal Code definition.

Second, even if we were to accept the Attorney General's assertion that the definition of "loaded" contained in Penal Code section 12031, subdivision (g) applies to Health and Safety Code section 11370.1, subdivision (a), we would still conclude the shotgun here was not loaded.
…
[2] A statute "must be given a reasonable and commonsense interpretation consistent with the apparent purpose and intention of the Legislature, practical rather than technical in nature, and which, when applied, will result in wise policy rather than mischief or absurdity. [Citations.]" (Beaty v. Imperial Irrigation Dist. (1986) 186 Cal.App.3d 897, 902 [231 Cal.Rptr. 128].) "The words must be construed in context in light of the nature and obvious purpose of the statute where they appear. [Citation.]" (Decker v. City of Imperial Beach (1989) 209 Cal.App.3d 349, 354 [257 Cal.Rptr. 356]; Lakin v. Watkins Associated Industries (1993) 6 Cal.4th 644, 659 [25 Cal.Rptr.2d 109, 863 P.2d 179].)
…
Given the examples are all consistent with an intent to use the common meaning of "loaded," it follows the Legislature's use of the phrase "attached in any manner" to the firearm was intended to encompass a situation where a shell or cartridge might be attached to a firearm or "loaded" for firing by some unconventional method. The phrase does not demonstrate a clear Legislative intent to deem a firearm loaded no matter how a shell is attached to a firearm; in particular, it does not indicate a clear intent to deem a gun "loaded" when the ammunition, as here, is in a storage compartment which is not equivalent to either a magazine or clip and from which the ammunition cannot be fired. Our conclusion that the Legislature intended "loaded" as used in Penal Code section 12031 to reflect the common definition is supported by the court in People v. Heffner (1977) 70 Cal.App.3d 643, 650 [139 Cal.Rptr. 45], which reached the same conclusion …

So, following Clark, loaded means “a firearm is "loaded" when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired”. This is NOT restricted to shotguns.

NEW CASE LAW COULD CHANGE THIS – again, consult your own paid attorney for specifics regarding any legal action...

libertarian · #7 (**permalink**) 07-14-2009, 05:46 PM

If, on the other hand, you'd rather be insulated against "poorly trained" law enforcement, it's a good idea to put the ammo on the other side of the lock from the weapon.

It goes beyond the 'required legal' standard, but it's a lot more likely to pass the 'sniff test' by law enforcement and keep you out of cuffs.

If you think you're going to be able to explain People v Clark to an angry police officer before he hooks you up and takes you downtown for the DA to sort out, good luck to you.

Old Timer · #8 (**permalink**) 07-15-2009, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by libertarian

If, on the other hand, you'd rather be insulated against "poorly trained" law enforcement, it's a good idea to put the ammo on the other side of the lock from the weapon.

It goes beyond the 'required legal' standard, but it's a lot more likely to pass the 'sniff test' by law enforcement and keep you out of cuffs.

If you think you're going to be able to explain People v Clark to an angry police officer before he hooks you up and takes you downtown for the DA to sort out, good luck to you.

Good advice. It is not required but I always keep a lock between the gun and the ammo when transporting in any of my vehicles.

nosmatt · #9 (**permalink**) 07-15-2009, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by libertarian

If, on the other hand, you'd rather be insulated against "poorly trained" law enforcement, it's a good idea to put the ammo on the other side of the lock from the weapon.

It goes beyond the 'required legal' standard, but it's a lot more likely to pass the 'sniff test' by law enforcement and keep you out of cuffs.

If you think you're going to be able to explain People v Clark to an angry police officer before he hooks you up and takes you downtown for the DA to sort out, good luck to you.

on yet another hand, i have a truck, which as we all know has NO TRUNK. by the letter of the law, i could be hooked up for that.
i am NOT going to be purchasing another locking safe for my ammo/magazines. this is a bit absurd. they will be loaded, next to my unloaded weapon, loked in a case when transporting. once i get a ccw, well then i will not have to worry for the most part, no?

tango-52 · #10 (**permalink**) 07-15-2009, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nosmatt

on yet another hand, i have a truck, which as we all know has NO TRUNK. by the letter of the law, i could be hooked up for that.
i am NOT going to be purchasing another locking safe for my ammo/magazines. this is a bit absurd. they will be loaded, next to my unloaded weapon, loked in a case when transporting. once i get a ccw, well then i will not have to worry for the most part, no?

I don't think the suggestion was having the magazines also locked up separately. When I go to the range, my pistol is unloaded in a locked case that fits in my range bag. My range bag has ten loaded magazines in one of the zippered pockets. The lock (on the gun case) is between the gun and the ammo. No problem.

Truckoholic · #11 (**permalink**) 07-15-2009, 10:28 AM

There is nothing illegal about having ammo in your vehicle. When it is not in a gun, it is just ammo. And so far, thank heaven, there is no law about ammo itself being carried in the vehicle.

When the gun is locked in a case unloaded, as far as the law is concerned, it doesn't exist. It is of nobodies concern when it is locked in the case. So to have ammo, in the vehicle as well, is no problem. It has always been my understanding in California, that it is best to not have the ammo in the same locked case as the gun, but as the above poster indicated, even that is not illegal.

I know it is good to err on the side of caution and always assume that the LEO that is dealing with you is going to be ignorant to the actual law. But what I get so sick and tired of, are people who completely push aside common sense and act as if it is the law that you need to have the ammo locked in a separate container just in case an idiot cop pulls them over. I have always been the type that ignorance to the law is no excuse, so I look up the law myself rather than listen to a bunch of peoples mis-interpretations of the law.

A magazine is not a firearm. Therefore, ammo in a magazine is not a loaded firearm. When the firearm is locked in a container, it is no longer a firearm. Therefore, having ammo in magazines within the vehicle whether they are also locked in a case or not, does not mean you are illegally carrying a loaded firearm. It would just be completely absurd if someone was to tell you that even ammo locked inside of a seperate container needed to not be in magazines. As if being in the magazines makes the ammo way too readily accessible. Having the magazines loaded, NOT locked in a case would make them pretty darn accessible, but even that is not illegal as far as I know. It just can't be in the gun, and the gun needs to be locked in a container until you get your permit to carry.

libertarian · #12 (**permalink**) 07-15-2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nosmatt

on yet another hand, i have a truck, which as we all know has NO TRUNK. by the letter of the law, i could be hooked up for that.
i am NOT going to be purchasing another locking safe for my ammo/magazines. this is a bit absurd. they will be loaded, next to my unloaded weapon, loked in a case when transporting. once i get a ccw, well then i will not have to worry for the most part, no?

The ammo can be loose in the vehicle, so long as the weapon is locked up. If the weapon is in a locked container, it doesn't have to be in the trunk, according to the letter of the law.

You can't have a weapon in an UNLOCKED compartment of the vehicle. If it's in a locked range bag behind the seats, that's dandy.

Also, remember at this point you're splitting hairs: What are the odds you're going to get pulled over, the cop is going to ask you about weapons, then search your range bag and inspect it? Pretty slim.

Personally, I would lock the ammo outside the box with the gun. Like I said, that's more than the law requires, but I have a distaste for holding cells. You can make your own decisions.

nosmatt · #13 (**permalink**) 07-15-2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by libertarian

I have a distaste for holding cells. You can make your own decisions.

lol

i hear ya. being the last time i was asked if i had any weapons in my car, was about 18 years ago i really have little to worry about.

paul0660 · #14 (**permalink**) 07-15-2009, 11:12 PM

Quote:

What are the odds you're going to get pulled over, the cop is going to ask you about weapons, then search your range bag and inspect it? Pretty slim.

It's not the odds, it's the stakes. It is perfectly legal to have loaded mags in the same locked compartment (not THE glove compartment nor THE utility box) as the pistol........and I never do it. There are far too many policemen, with many differing levels of education and training, (including that from "experts") to take the chance. I also keep an unloaded mag in the pistol, so it is "complete". That, of course, is for the handguns not on my permit.

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