Unintentional brandishing

[NSP]

It was illuminated to me this weekend at my CCW class that not only if someone can see your gun itself, or can tell you're carrying that it's a misdemeanor and all legal actions can befall you.

I'm wondering if anyone here has had public episodes of the gun sticking out? I mean you trip, your pant leg goes up and your ankle holster is showing, reaching for the fresh milk in the back and your SOB peeks out a 1/2 inch, it's a windy day and your jacket flaps open. Small incidents where your concealed weapon is exposed or your concealed carry status is compromised.

If the gen pub does notice this how well are you received? To they scream and run away or do they wink and forget it the next moment?

[SierraNevadaCCW]

I haven't had this issue. (that I know of). There have been times where I've had to hold my jacket while walking in the wind or be careful reaching for things in public, etc.

I'm not sure Joe Public is going to run screaming or do any winking if they see a holstered weapon under a shirt. I'd think most would assume you are LE if it's holstered...if it's not holstered there's a different impression there.

That said...don't take any chances. Carrying a firearm is a giant responsibility and you have to be very very careful in all aspects of your day to day life while packing.

[Sigman]

The few times I have seen a gun I assume they are LEO. As long as they are shady looking I have never thought twice about it. I am comfortable around guns though. The normal person that is afraid may act differently. I don't think they would run screaming but you never know.

[Spicy McHaggis]

Originally Posted by NSP

It was illuminated to me this weekend at my CCW class that not only if someone can see your gun itself, or can tell you're carrying that it's a misdemeanor and all legal actions can befall you.

I'm wondering if anyone here has had public episodes of the gun sticking out? I mean you trip, your pant leg goes up and your ankle holster is showing, reaching for the fresh milk in the back and your SOB peeks out a 1/2 inch, it's a windy day and your jacket flaps open. Small incidents where your concealed weapon is exposed or your concealed carry status is compromised.

If the gen pub does notice this how well are you received? To they scream and run away or do they wink and forget it the next moment?

This reminds me of a story my mom told me a long time ago. My dad (retired LEO) was carrying in a grocery store and had went to pick up some things while my mom went to the other side of the store. This was in LA County, but back in the late 60s. My dad had reached up to the top shelf and his shirt snagged on his weapon and it became exposed. As he was walking back to find my mom, a store employee came up to him and let him know his weapon was exposed. If this had happened today, the SWAT team would probably have been called out. I think it also had to do with how he looked. He was still working patrol and had a high and tight haircut and was dressed nicely. If it had been a few years later when he was working undercover they might have had a different reaction.

As mentioned in a post above mine, I also think it has a lot to do with how you present yourself. If you are a clean cut person and don't look like a "scumbag" most people will assume you are a LEO and will probably just ignore it or will nicely tell you (I would guess most people would ignore it, rather than approach you). But this is CA, the most anti-gun state in the country. So you may get a visit from the SWAT team. In any other state you would probably get someone walking up to you to ask you how you like shooting that Kimber and that they were thinking about getting one.

[hbliam]

Accidently exposing your firearm isn't considered "brandishing". Don't worry about it. What class taught you this?


417. (a) (2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:

[NSP]

Originally Posted by hbliam

Accidently exposing your firearm isn't considered "brandishing". Don't worry about it. What class taught you this?

The gentleman is named Fred. I'm going to borrow your quote from you to show where he got this conclusion from. Also he's been teaching the class for over a decade.

417. (a) (2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:

He says that if someone can tell you're carrying through any means (imprint or otherwise) the sherriff can be called, of course at that point it's at their disgression.

Of course in the litigious society we live in if you have a rifle legally stored in your vehicle and someone sees it the police are called in.

[hbliam]

Originally Posted by NSP

The gentleman is named Fred. I'm going to borrow your quote from you to show where he got this conclusion from. Also he's been teaching the class for over a decade.

417. (a) (2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:

He says that if someone can tell you're carrying through any means (imprint or otherwise) the sherriff can be called, of course at that point it's at their disgression.

Of course in the litigious society we live in if you have a rifle legally stored in your vehicle and someone sees it the police are called in.

The term is "elements of the crime". If you don't have the elements you don't have the crime. You can underline exhibit all day long but unless the person is exhibiting the firearm in a rude, angry, or threatening manner you have...no crime.

Sorry but the guy teaching the class is teaching misinformation. Having your shirt slip up and expose a firearm isn't what I would call rude or angry. Yes, you may have someone call the police and say you have a gun but after you show them your CCW you will be on your way.

[Spicy McHaggis]

You also need to look out for any city or county ordinances that are on the books for open carry. You could be charged with open carry of a loaded firearm if you accidentally let it show.

[NSP]

Originally Posted by hbliam

The term is "elements of the crime". If you don't have the elements you don't have the crime. You can underline exhibit all day long but unless the person is exhibiting the firearm in a rude, angry, or threatening manner you have...no crime.

Sorry but the guy teaching the class is teaching misinformation. Having your shirt slip up and expose a firearm isn't what I would call rude or angry. Yes, you may have someone call the police and say you have a gun but after you show them your CCW you will be on your way.

I'm probably going to see him in the near future, I'll ask him about this.

[akulahawk]

Originally Posted by NSP

The gentleman is named Fred. I'm going to borrow your quote from you to show where he got this conclusion from. Also he's been teaching the class for over a decade.

417. (a) (2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:

He says that if someone can tell you're carrying through any means (imprint or otherwise) the sherriff can be called, of course at that point it's at their discretion.

Of course in the litigious society we live in if you have a rifle legally stored in your vehicle and someone sees it the police are called in.

Originally Posted by hbliam

The term is "elements of the crime". If you don't have the elements you don't have the crime. You can underline exhibit all day long but unless the person is exhibiting the firearm in a rude, angry, or threatening manner you have...no crime.

Sorry but the guy teaching the class is teaching misinformation. Having your shirt slip up and expose a firearm isn't what I would call rude or angry. Yes, you may have someone call the police and say you have a gun but after you show them your CCW you will be on your way.

Just underlining hb's point... the underlined stuff above is the elements of the crime. Just so you know, hbliam knows of what he speaks.

Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis

You also need to look out for any city or county ordinances that are on the books for open carry. You could be charged with open carry of a loaded firearm if you accidentally let it show.

This is also something to be aware of. Sacramento County does not have an ordinance that involves firearms in a manner other than regulating discharge of them. However, the City of Sacramento (as an example) does have those ordinances. There is an exception for people with a license for those weapons though. I'd suspect that such county/city ordinances apply only to the unlicensed carry of weapons.

[hygyliac]

When we received our CCWs, I'm sure most of us took on the conscious resposibilty and effort of determining how our everyday movements and our mode of dress should be modified so as to limit the possibility of our weapon playing peek-a-boo. I've noticed that the general public is not as observant as a CCW holder is about these things.

[akulahawk]

Originally Posted by hygyliac

When we received our CCWs, I'm sure most of us took on the conscious resposibilty and effort of determining how our everyday movements and our mode of dress should be modified so as to limit the possibility of our weapon playing peek-a-boo. I've noticed that the general public is not as observant as a CCW holder is about these things.

You would probably be amazed what the "general public" does not observe...

[spc]

I was caught exposed one time at a service station. I had just stepped out of the truck (it was a windy day) and realized my firearm was exposed, either from a wind gust or shirt being snagged on it. I was reaching for my wallet to get my credit card when I realized my lack of concealability and as I reached to adjust my shirt I looked at the young man at the pump across the way who was looking at my SA Micro compact holstered on my hip and covered the firearm. We caught eye contact and I gave him a small nod and covered.

No issue, he did not freak or say a thing and we went about our business.
I am generally dressed in t-shirt and shorts or levis and slaps or tennis shoes. Clean but not business like. I do feel that as I handeled it with no real show of concern and did not hesitate or get flustered he probably thought nothing special about my having a firearm. Oviously he felt no threat, and I have no idea what the was thinking.

If you ever get made or loose concealability calmly cover and carry on with things as if all is normal and your firearm is nothing special to be concerned about. A calm attitude will reassure a person it is nothing to be concerned about and all is well.

I could carry on much more on this subject, but will save it for another time.

spc

[IAmASensFan]

Originally Posted by hygyliac

When we received our CCWs, I'm sure most of us took on the conscious resposibilty and effort of determining how our everyday movements and our mode of dress should be modified so as to limit the possibility of our weapon playing peek-a-boo. I've noticed that the general public is not as observant as a CCW holder is about these things.

I have to agree...Because I spend so much time with people who carry concealed, I can pick it out much better than before.

It really was a lucky assumption, but the look of shock on one LEO's face when I saw the bottom inch of his OWB from under his shirt, and correctly ID'd what kind of pistol he was carrying, was priceless.

[bk9360]

The explanation of that law, as it was given to me, is that just the sight of a gun can be argued as "threatening." As the language reads, its an "or" not an "and" so only one of the 3 have to apply for you to be found unlawful. If the 80 year old lady at the grocery store sees either the imprint or the gun itself because of a movement you make and it freaks her out, she has then felt threatened by the fact you have a gun. I realize its dumb, but as the law is written I do not see this as much of a stretch.

Hard thing is, LEO's have no reason to be as careful as civilians because if they are caught with a weapon "peaking" out, they can flash a badge and all is well in the world. That same 80 year old woman who is scared to death because she saw your gun would be quickly calmed if you were able to pull out your badge and say "sorry ma'am, but i'm a police officer." As for the rest of us, we must be extra careful.

Remember, its our word against theirs. If you have a trustworthy witness with you when it happens, no worries. But if its just you and the old lady...personally I'd hate to have to explain to a cop that grandma over in the corner is crying for no apparent reason and that I'm not the bad guy.

That being said, I really do not see it as a big issue. I think if the police are called on me for someone "seeing" my gun, it'd be an inconvenience for me and I'd feel bad that I've freaked someone out, but I don't see it going to court or anything criminal. However, still something to keep in mind and try to avoid as much as humanly possible.