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Old 03-26-2009, 12:17 PM
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Default CCW Defense Insurance ??

I have a couple of umbrella policies for liability but found this CCW insurance. I'm a little afraid to ask my insurance rep about any coverage.

Seems that they will pay for your defense through the Grand Jury phase for about $120.00 per year. CHLPP is a legal services membership organization for concealed handgun licence/permit holders

Anyone have information on other insurance options to cover the costs in the event of defending yourself?

After all, this is California

Looking forward to your comments.
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Old 03-26-2009, 12:40 PM
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I have CCW insurance through the NRA
NRA Insurance - Share the Belief, Share the Benefits - Excess Personal Liability: Self-Defense

I've had this one for 2 years now. I looked over your insurance, and I don't see the coverage. I get $100,000 liability on NRA's for $165 a year. What does yours offer?
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Old 03-26-2009, 01:42 PM
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Have not bought any insurance yet, but I think it’s a good idea.

Our CCW instructor said that in California, if your involved in a shooting expect to pay at least $50K to an attorney even if you did everything right.

Also, you can count on a civil suit most of the time.

If anyone on the forum knows if a standard personal umbrella policy would cover any CCW liability, please give your .02 cents

Thanks,

PS: Picking up my Permit Tomorrow
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Old 03-26-2009, 09:31 PM
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In my opinion, this issue can become very confusing. If you read the language in most home owners and umbrella policies you will notice that any "intentional" acts are excluded from coverage. So it becomes very debatable as to whether self defense shootings are considered intentional acts. I was told by an insurance agent from Liberty Mutual that if I draw my weapon and shoot someone, then I "intended" to injure or kill, but after some discussion he admitted that he wasn't sure if I would be covered. Real comforting huh? Makes me wonder if they would cover me if an intruder was lucky enough to live to sue me after being shot in my house.

I wish we had someone here that had real life experience with successfully using their umbrella policy to cover them in a self defense situation. In my experience, you can't get any real answers from the insurance companies.

Myself......I am planning to get the NRA insurance. I am more concerned with any possible criminal defense than I am about civil liability. Other than a few months salary in the bank and a miniscule amount of home equity, I really don't have much along the lines of assets. I'm more worried about ending up with some overworked public defender having my life in his hands.
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Old 03-27-2009, 05:20 AM
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Could the argument be made you shot them responsively rather than intentionally. A threat was presented and you 'responded' to the threat as trained. I didn't have the time to decide to intentionally shoot, but responded to a deadly threat to my safety.

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Old 03-27-2009, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom98915 View Post
I have CCW insurance through the NRA
NRA Insurance - Share the Belief, Share the Benefits - Excess Personal Liability: Self-Defense

I've had this one for 2 years now. I looked over your insurance, and I don't see the coverage. I get $100,000 liability on NRA's for $165 a year. What does yours offer?
I believe Tom98915 has the best resolution here.....This way you know exactly what you have.....
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Old 03-29-2009, 09:34 PM
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$100k liability isn't enough, and $165 is pretty expensive to boot. You need at least $1m in coverage to see you through both criminal and civil trials. Whether it's the suspect or his family, you can expect to get sued civilly regardless of the merits of the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Seems that they will pay for your defense through the Grand Jury phase for about $120.00 per year.
I am going to assume this "protection" applies to criminal trials only, since grand juries don't have anything to do with civil cases. I am very curious exactly what kind of legal services they provide. Here's my (possibly simplistic) understanding of criminal cases:
1. Something happens. Police document everything in a report. If you are arrested at the time you can probably post bail after a hearing to determine if you are a flight risk.
2. The DA decides if they want to press charges. In California, grand juries are primarily interested in oversight of gov't institutions. If a grand jury were to investigate a criminal matter (unlikely), the prosecutor presents his case. No defense attorney is involved at all.
3. If the DA presses charges, then you go into discovery, pre-trial motions, etc.

So, based on that it seems CHLPP, at least in California, will help you set bail and that's it. It doesn't seem worth $120/yr.

Last edited by LuckyDog : 03-29-2009 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 03-30-2009, 07:18 AM
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Thanks for all the info.

I'm going to pull out my policys and read them again before I call my agent.

It's about $480.00 per year for a 1 Million Dollar umbrella policy. Since this covers "liability" I would hope it would cover any event with defending myself, but I don't trust the insurance companys.
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Old 03-30-2009, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyDog View Post
$100k liability isn't enough, and $165 is pretty expensive to boot. You need at least $1m in coverage to see you through both criminal and civil trials. Whether it's the suspect or his family, you can expect to get sued civilly regardless of the merits of the case.


I am going to assume this "protection" applies to criminal trials only, since grand juries don't have anything to do with civil cases. I am very curious exactly what kind of legal services they provide. Here's my (possibly simplistic) understanding of criminal cases:
1. Something happens. Police document everything in a report. If you are arrested at the time you can probably post bail after a hearing to determine if you are a flight risk.
2. The DA decides if they want to press charges. In California, grand juries are primarily interested in oversight of gov't institutions. If a grand jury were to investigate a criminal matter (unlikely), the prosecutor presents his case. No defense attorney is involved at all.
3. If the DA presses charges, then you go into discovery, pre-trial motions, etc.

So, based on that it seems CHLPP, at least in California, will help you set bail and that's it. It doesn't seem worth $120/yr.

The amount I specified is a starting point with NRA CCW insurance. They have higher amounts of coverage. DO take the time to read through it and you will see what they have to offer.
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Old 03-30-2009, 01:34 PM
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USAA Insurance called today to update our insurance policies, both homeowners and auto. My wife ran the bulk of the discussion, but I spoke with an agent and discovered that with a Personal Injury Endorsement of $14-17 per year Legal CCW self defense is covered. So with our company there is a requirement to add an endorsement for this coverage. This endorsement would offer coverage up to the policy limits including umbrella coverage limits.

BTW, the agent had to do some research and a return call about 10 minutes later.

spc
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Old 03-30-2009, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom98915 View Post
The amount I specified is a starting point with NRA CCW insurance. They have higher amounts of coverage. DO take the time to read through it and you will see what they have to offer.
I did take the time to read it before posting and my opinion stands. $100k coverage is not enough and paying $165/yr for it is pretty expensive. Yes NRA CCW insurance offers a higher coverage amount, but only $250k. That is still not enough and at $254/yr still too expensive for what you get.

Compare that to $1m umbrella liability w/CCW coverage for maybe $500/yr and it should be pretty clear.
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Old 03-30-2009, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spc View Post
USAA Insurance called today to update our insurance policies, both homeowners and auto. My wife ran the bulk of the discussion, but I spoke with an agent and discovered that with a Personal Injury Endorsement of $14-17 per year Legal CCW self defense is covered. So with our company there is a requirement to add an endorsement for this coverage. This endorsement would offer coverage up to the policy limits including umbrella coverage limits.
It's good to know that USAA has a coverage for "Legal CCW" that is truly inexpensive. I've been with them for about 32 years and once I have my CCW I'll be calling...
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Old 03-30-2009, 04:21 PM
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OK, I just spent 20 minutes on the phone with my Allstate agent.

1) If the shooting is a legal event (not a felony) it would be covered under my home owners insurance to the policy max, then the umbrella coverage would kick in if needed.

2) Prudent Man Test: The actions of the CCW holder or for that matter any person who defends themselves or a loved one would have to meet the expectations of the average "Prudent Man". My agent gave a scenario of a man threatening you with a small stick or is yelling at you and you shoot him. That is not the action of a "Prudent Man".

3) Personal Injury Endorsement: He's never heard of this, at least with Allstate.

Basically, he says as long as your actions are legal and within the law, your home owners will take over. The Umbrella policy is extra "Sleep at Night" insurance.

Looking forward to what others find out on this subject.
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Old 03-30-2009, 05:56 PM
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Well, in my case NRA works fine since I don't have homeowner's insurance (I rent an apartment). Still I think it's worth it since one hour of an attorney's time is about $250 to $300.
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Old 03-30-2009, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD6023 View Post
It's good to know that USAA has a coverage for "Legal CCW" that is truly inexpensive. I've been with them for about 32 years and once I have my CCW I'll be calling...
Hope it helps. When you go through the process of obtaining the coverage let us know about your results.

spc
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