Why didnt the 10 mm ever catch on?

[Ciderbite]

Why didn't the 10mm ever catch on? Ive been fortunate enough to be able to shoot a friends glock chambered in this fine round, but still am wondering why this never replaced the 9mm as a more potent self defense round. Light recoil, easily chambered in various guns but it never got any momentum in the market. Thank goodness for the ability to reload our own 10mm or I wouldn't be able to shoot it at all. Factory 10 mm is pretty expensive

[libertarian]

There are several reasons, mostly historical. Some had to do with the fact that 10mm guns were physically large and therefore hard to conceal or for people with small hands to use. "full power" 10mm was also "too harsh" for many shooters, being designed as it was for maximum barrier penetration.

The "light recoil" version of the 10mm round did catch on, it was simply put in shorter brass, we know it today as the .40 S&W.

[WKC]

CCWI can cite a case where a female FBI agent sued because she could not qualify with the issued weapon and ammunition (10mm I think). Thus the 40 small and weak was created.

[hygyliac]

Originally Posted by WKC

CCWI can cite a case where a female FBI agent sued because she could not qualify with the issued weapon and ammunition (10mm I think). Thus the 40 small and weak was created.

This is close what I have heard also. The version that I heard was that the female agents and trainees were having a very difficult time qualifying. I have a 10 mm but don't shoot it much because of the price of ammo.

[NikNak]

Originally Posted by WKC

CCWI can cite a case where a female FBI agent sued because she could not qualify with the issued weapon and ammunition (10mm I think). Thus the 40 small and weak was created.

I thought it was the "Short & Whimpy."

I still don't plan on being in front of one, or a 9MM for that matter.....


When I was young(?) my dad mentioned how big a 9MM was and when I showed him a 9MM vs a 45ACP, he simply stated "the hole in the Luger looked allot bigger when it was pointed at me."
He was a teenager in Holland during the Nazi occcupation ... that's a little different perspective.

[CCWInstructor]

The back strap of 10 mm guns also break from recoil. Yes the FBI moved away from the 10 mm for that reason.

[sholling]

Another reason is that for the average self defense situation the 10mm never really brought a lot more to the party than a 45acp. Yes it could send a 180gr bullet down range awfully fast but all of the gello results I've seen published showed pretty much the same expanded diameter and depth as the 45. In my opinion where the 10mm shines is as a back woods sidearm. With the right load the penetration outshines most other autoloaders. At least that's the only reason I'd buy one. Of course I'm not a leading authority so feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Things like car/barrier penetration I can't speak for.

[Bombard]

I'm looking at the performance data. Depending on the ammo, The 10mm is not significantly more powerful than a .40 short and wimpy.

[PHM]

Originally Posted by Bombard

I'm looking at the performance data. Depending on the ammo, The 10mm is not significantly more powerful than a .40 short and wimpy.

Actually those numbers don't look much different to me, the 10mm is more powerful but I wouldn't call it significant according to the numbers you have posted, the 40sw has rounds with similar results as the 10mm. Muzzle velocity is not what makes a round better than another round, look at the 45acp it a slow round but arguably the most effective round for man stopping.

[sholling]

It all depends on the loading. DoubleTap has some serious loadings. Note the similarity in performance between the 180gr 10mm GD and the 230gr 45acp GD.

DoubleTap Gold Dot .40S&W 180gr @ 1140fps 520 ft/lbs from a 4.5"bbl.

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"

DoubleTap 10mm Gold Dot 180gr. @ 1300fps / 676ft/lbs - from a Glock 20

DoubleTap 10mm gello results
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"

DoubleTap .45ACP Gold Dot 230gr. @ 1014fps/ 521 ft./lbs. - from a 5" 1911

DoubleTap .45ACP gello results
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

[Bombard]

Basically you have 4 or 5 factors - diameter, bullet shape, velocity and weight. Velocity and weight get combined into energy. The old Hatcher formula was

RSP = (WB * V * A * F) / 1000

where

RSP = Relative Stopping Power Index
WB = the bullet weight in grains
A = Area of the bullet in in2
V = the bullet velocity in feet per second (f/s)
F = Form factor derived from the chart.

F factor:
Fully Jacketed Pointed .7
Lead Flat Point (Large Flat) 1.1 - 1.2
Fully Jacketed Round Nose .9
Lead Semi-wadcutter 1.25
Lead Round Nose 1
Lead Flat Point 1.05
Jacketed Softpoint (unexpanded) 1 - 1.1
Fully Jacketed Flat Point 1.05
Jacketed Softpoint (expanded) 1.35
Fully Jacketed Flat Point (Large flat) 1.1
Hollow Point (unexpanded) 1.1
Hollow Point (expanded) 1.35

It was a decent attempt, but it got silly if taken to extremes. A baseball thrown at 90 mph comes out with more stopping power than a .45. The coefficients for form factors are completely arbitrary. Does anyone really believe that, all other things being equal, a lead semi-wadcutter has almost the same stopping power as an expanded hollow point?

But the .40/10mm chart I posted was comparing apples to apples - .4" diameter 180 grain bullets. The only difference was velocity. And a lot of the .40 S&W show the same velocity - and therefor the same total energy - as the 10mm.

You can argue over whether a .45 FMJ with less energy has the same stopping power as a .40 FMJ with more energy, I don't have the answer to that. But I think it's obvious that a bigger, heavier bullet will have more stopping power than a lighter, smaller one moving at the same speed. And I think it's obvious that 2 bullets of the same shape, diameter and weight moving at the same speed will do the same damage, no matter what's stamped on the case head.

[Glock32]

The original loading of the 10mm from Norma kicked butt. It was great on paper, had recoil close to a .357 mag out of a k-frame and beat up Bren-Tens and Colt Delta Elites like no other.
Todays commercially loaded 10mm Auto ammo only shares the name with the original stuff.

This is from the Dornaus & Dixon 1984 Bren Ten catalog:

The Norma factory loaded 10mm Auto cartridge is a center fire, rimless, brass cased, straight walled, large caliber pistol cartridge. It measures 1.250 inches in overall length with the bullet measuring 10.16 (.40") millimeters in diameter. It uses a special Norma powder designed expressly for optimum muzzle velocity while maintaining safe chamber pressures, and uses a standard .210" diameter large pistol primer. The bullet is a copper alloy full jacket, lead core design, and has a truncated cone shape (Jacketed Truncated Cone or JTC). Bullet weight is 200 granis (13 grams practical). Out of a Norma 5" test barrel (the length of the Bren Ten barrel, full-sized models), muzzle velocity is 1200 feet per second, and produces a moderate average chamber pressure of 37,000 c.u.p. (copper units of pressure). Kinetic energy at the muzzle is 640 foot pounds. Relative Stopping Power on the Hatcher Scale is 72 (30 R.S.P. on the Cooper Short Form). The 10mm Auto moves the striking pendulum farther than the .45 ACP from the same distance, out of the same gun (the Bren Ten shoots both rounds). Because of the unique design of the Bren Ten, the 10mm Auto cartridge has the felt recoil of the .45 ACP 230 grain hardball round out of a Colt Government Model, yet it retains more kinetic energy at 100 yards than the .45 ACP has at the muzzle. The large bullet cross sectional density, along with the velocity and kinetic energy, combine to produce a truly effective cartridge. Ballistically, the closest comparable cartridge to the 10mm Auto is the .41 Magnum. The 10mm Auto cartridge has been designed and developed to be the optimum combat pistol cartridge.

[paul0660]

Too hot. Poor marketing. 10mm is just 1 mm more than 9mm. .40 sounds close to .45 and who knows what a 9mm measures anyway.. Mostly, too hot. A lot of of us spend a lot of time and money at the range. I will take a sharp eyed buddy with an 8 shot .22 over a flincher with an elephant killer any time.

[CCWInstructor]

Originally Posted by Glock32

The original loading of the 10mm from Norma kicked butt. It was great on paper, had recoil close to a .357 mag out of a k-frame and beat up Bren-Tens and Colt Delta Elites like no other.

I have about 4,000 rounds of that stuff left. I had the US exclusive on Norma. Sold Colt, Bren and S&W their proof loads.

[YankeeDog]

I have a Glock 10mm. It is big and packs a fairly heavy recoil. It is not the weapon for CCW as it prints under almost anything. It is a good home defense weapon now. I moved to the G27, .40 cal. and it has a more manageable recoil and CC nicely.

my .02
YD