Why didnt the 10 mm ever catch on?

[damjo]

I have a Colt Delta Elite in 10mm, I like the way it shoot.

going to have to start reloading 10mm now.

[NSP]

I shot a 10mm years ago. I remember I liked it a lot.

Also, I went to the range once with my friend who has a .40S&W Springfield XD. I brought my .45 Springfield XD and we tried each other's guns. They pretty much felt the same. No discernable difference we could tell...

[libertarian]

The thing to remember with the original 10mm full-power loads is that they weren't designed to have more stopping power than a .45 ACP, except through barriers. The Miami shootout study made a lot of hay out of the fact that they really wanted to shoot through the car and still have enough energy left to stop the target.

Thus, the gel tests look similar, but the 10mm was designed for a higher speed/smaller projectile = better barrier penetration. On a soft target, .45 is still your best value for bleed/impact, until someone comes up with a pocket .308.

[El Gato]

Originally Posted by libertarian

The thing to remember with the original 10mm full-power loads is that they weren't designed to have more stopping power than a .45 ACP, except through barriers. The Miami shootout study made a lot of hay out of the fact that they really wanted to shoot through the car and still have enough energy left to stop the target.

Thus, the gel tests look similar, but the 10mm was designed for a higher speed/smaller projectile = better barrier penetration. On a soft target, .45 is still your best value for bleed/impact, until someone comes up with a pocket .308.

The 10mm corbon - Double Tap loads.. .with the 135 gr. bullet are simply spectacular in expansion and temp. cavity...shoot flat and don't overpenetrate... The silvertip 175gr load is also very hot and doesn't seem to be as overpenetrative... love the 10...

My two cents worth anyway...

[Bombard]

Originally Posted by libertarian

The thing to remember with the original 10mm full-power loads is that they weren't designed to have more stopping power than a .45 ACP, except through barriers. The Miami shootout study made a lot of hay out of the fact that they really wanted to shoot through the car and still have enough energy left to stop the target.

Thus, the gel tests look similar, but the 10mm was designed for a higher speed/smaller projectile = better barrier penetration. On a soft target, .45 is still your best value for bleed/impact, until someone comes up with a pocket .308.

Interesting. I can understand the desire LE would have for more penetration, I actually want less. I'd WANT my misses to stop in a car door, or 2 layers of drywall.

[sholling]

Originally Posted by Bombard

Interesting. I can understand the desire LE would have for more penetration, I actually want less. I'd WANT my misses to stop in a car door, or 2 layers of drywall.

Most of the writing that I've seen on the subject stated a goal of 15-18 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin. I'm not in LE so I look at 15" as an ideal and anything over 16" as excessive. But as I've said before the 10mm with a heavy "hunting" projectile makes a near ideal choice for a woods sidearm almost anywhere short of Alaska. I don't know if you caught the episode where the Nuge took down an enormous wounded bore from about 50yds with a Glock.

[NikNak]

FYI - a 10MM CCW guy in AZ was sent to prison because he shot a guy on a hiking trail with a 10MM. Yes, the dead guy was a "crazy"and had two dogs that were circling the CCW guy.

The Prosecutor used the fact that he had a 10MM Colt Delta Elite with ... get this - Hollowpoint (Hydra-Shok) bullets and since the police do not carry the 10MM got the jurers to believe that the CCW guy was looking to kill somone.

The story was on TV .. Nightline, or Dateline. The CCW owner(a harmless father of five) ended up in prison.

I personally thought he had poor representation, but the words from the jury after the trial were amazing. They derided hollowpoints, the 10MM etc ... speaking verbatum what the prosecutor had said.

This happened in NE AZ in a rather conservative and remote area. The defense had a local police chief, fire chief and head of security from a local college. All stated that the dead guy was a danger to society, tended to cause allot of problems and thought he would seriously hurt or kill someone due to his instability and temper. The jurors did not accept the officer's opinions as it realted to prior contact and purely went with the prosecutorial statements. I was shocked and that is why I will only CCW current, or past LEO ammunition. I will also only use re-loads for practice, but factory for CCW.

I am sure a solid prosecutor would find the prior AZ case and use it as justification, or precedence as well.

This story brought home to me that it was more important who you have as your defense attourney than anything that happens. I hope to never use one, but those recommended on this forum are on my cell phone under CCW Lawyer - So Cal, or No Cal ....

my $.02 & .02, & .02 worth .

[RomanDad]

Originally Posted by NikNak

FYI - a 10MM CCW guy in AZ was sent to prison because he shot a guy on a hiking trail with a 10MM. Yes, the dead guy was a "crazy"and had two dogs that were circling the CCW guy.

The Prosecutor used the fact that he had a 10MM Colt Delta Elite with ... get this - Hollowpoint (Hydra-Shok) bullets and since the police do not carry the 10MM got the jurers to believe that the CCW guy was looking to kill somone.

The story was on TV .. Nightline, or Dateline. The CCW owner(a harmless father of five) ended up in prison.

I personally thought he had poor representation, but the words from the jury after the trial were amazing. They derided hollowpoints, the 10MM etc ... speaking verbatum what the prosecutor had said.

This happened in NE AZ in a rather conservative and remote area. The defense had a local police chief, fire chief and head of security from a local college. All stated that the dead guy was a danger to society, tended to cause allot of problems and thought he would seriously hurt or kill someone due to his instability and temper. The jurors did not accept the officer's opinions as it realted to prior contact and purely went with the prosecutorial statements. I was shocked and that is why I will only CCW current, or past LEO ammunition. I will also only use re-loads for practice, but factory for CCW.

I am sure a solid prosecutor would find the prior AZ case and use it as justification, or precedence as well.

This story brought home to me that it was more important who you have as your defense attourney than anything that happens. I hope to never use one, but those recommended on this forum are on my cell phone under CCW Lawyer - So Cal, or No Cal ....

my $.02 & .02, & .02 worth .

He had a terrible lawyer.... But yeah... That didnt help the platform any.

(however, I remember watching that and agreeing with the jury on the rest of their verdict... The CCW guy had other options.)

[Old Fart]

I had a chance many years ago to put 4 or 5 magazines of the original 10mm Norma through a Bren 10 (I was shooting at the Huntington Beach pistol range, D&D was in HB, ran into their QC guy at the range)

Quite impressive - ballistics more like a .41 Mag than a .357 Mag. Not really any bigger than my 1911's - but I was too much of a "purist" in those days to consider a "crunchandticker" (Even Chairman Jeff's endorsement couldn't have swayed me)

Besides - other than the D&D QC guy and Sonny Crockett - I don't think anyone ever saw more than (2) magazines in the same place at the same time

Did wind up buying a 1076 several years later, had to handload to get anywhere near the Norma ballistics. If Santa were to put a Delta Elite under the tree I wouldn't turn it down...

[Bombard]

Originally Posted by RomanDad

He had a terrible lawyer.... But yeah... That didnt help the platform any.

(however, I remember watching that and agreeing with the jury on the rest of their verdict... The CCW guy had other options.)

From that point of view - convincing a jury that you're a fine, upstanding citizen acting reasonably in self defense - what are the better platforms? I'm not thinking about what's the best gun to carry, just trying to think about that one factor. Like a neighbor of mine that owns a HUGE and very well trained Rottweiller. It's ears and tail aren't clipped, so it doesn't look like a Nazi killer dog. It just looks like a really big mutt. It looks that way on purpose.

Certainly you'd want to stay away from a race gun, no optics or compensators, no death-head grips, no lasers.

Certainly a .38 revolver is good and respectable. A 1911? Is a Glock recognized by a wide enough swath of non-shooters? Would wood grips help? Heck - maybe a pink LadySmith?

I agree with what several people have said - carry the same ammo that your issuing agency carries, hopefully T-series.

[RomanDad]

Originally Posted by Bombard

From that point of view - convincing a jury that you're a fine, upstanding citizen acting reasonably in self defense - what are the better platforms? I'm not thinking about what's the best gun to carry, just trying to think about that one factor. Like a neighbor of mine that owns a HUGE and very well trained Rottweiller. It's ears and tail aren't clipped, so it doesn't look like a Nazi killer dog. It just looks like a really big mutt. It looks that way on purpose.

Certainly you'd want to stay away from a race gun, no optics or compensators, no death-head grips, no lasers.

Certainly a .38 revolver is good and respectable. A 1911? Is a Glock recognized by a wide enough swath of non-shooters? Would wood grips help? Heck - maybe a pink LadySmith?

I agree with what several people have said - carry the same ammo that your issuing agency carries, hopefully T-series.

.45 is used by LAPD and a bunch of other LE agencies....

I carry the same calibers that every Federal Law Enforcement Agency carries (.357sig/.40s&w) so Im good nationwide.

As far as I know, not a single LE agency ANYWHERE in CA carries the 10mm???

[NSP]

This thread is so bizarre to me....

You should be able to carry a round that you feel protects you the best.

If my area uses 9mm I'd still want a .357sig.

[sholling]

In reference to the AZ guy, I haven't followed the case but speaking in general a full boat 10mm is what I'd want on a trail. I love my 45s but if I run into an angry bear or a POed cougar I want more penetration than a 45 is going to give me. That's not something that the DA should have even been allowed to introduce into evidence.

[wcpassegai]

I have been shooting the 10mm for years. Initially I was using a Springfield Omega with 6" bbl, but more recently the Kimber Eclipse 5", which is my carry gun. I generally shoot the Double Tap 200 grain rounds - except when I am taking one of CCWI's classes, which would break me. I have not had the opportunity to shoot anything bigger than jack rabbits with it, but I can report that it does do a good job on them.

[libertarian]

Originally Posted by RomanDad

As far as I know, not a single LE agency ANYWHERE in CA carries the 10mm???

I don't think there are any left in the US carrying 10mm, but I'm sure someone will chime in if I'm wrong.