A horrible incident, thoughts

[solo3937]

I don't if any of you forum members have heard of this terrible incident that happened in Stanislaus county, just a few miles from my house, over the weekend. After you read it, as a ccw holder, what would you do? What are the possible legal repercussions of your actions? Just looking for some input, not endorsing any particular actions.

Here is the link to the article:

The Modesto Bee | Police shoot, kill man who savagely beat toddler to death near Turlock

[hygyliac]

Yes, this is a terrible thing and if you remember the officer involved did not need much time to determine what course of action was appropriate. It is difficult to believe that this could happen to a child with bystanders in the area.

[NSP]

Probably would have done the same thing the officer did.

Verbally warn
Physically try to remove the man or toddler
Draw

If I saw how engaged the man was to beating the toddler to death after I tried to physically restrain him I think step 3 would not be that hard.

[G30 Steve]

I don't usually comment on "what if" threads but this is just sickening.
Let's just say I would not have been one of the "passers-by".

[Bombard]

I've been thinking about this one a lot. It's difficult.

In defence of those passing by, it appears that some stopped - more than one, it's not clear how many. At least one contacted the police and convinced them to land a helo to put an officer on the scene ASAP. Others got between the man and the child. It's unclear how much damage the man did after people started intervening. The boy may have been dead before he was even noticed.

As you're making the decision you have a bunch of things to think about. Is it for real? "Gotcha" television has done stupider things. If the victim were an adult - is it consensual?

Is he armed? If you intervene, are you going to survive? Is he politically connected? Are you going to go to jail? What will that mean for your family? How's your insurance?

The impulse is to jump right in and do the right thing, protect the innocent. We would hope that you could do that without the fear of legal repercussions - but I don't think you can.

Woman awarded $7.7 million for false arrest

Drawing my weapon is risking my life, physically and legally. I might be willing to risk my life for a child I don't know. I'm not sure I'd risk my life for an adult I don't know.

[Spicy McHaggis]

We tend not to post "what-if" questions on this site. I'm not going to answer what I would do, but I'm just surprised people even noticed this at all. The way people drive on the roads now, it's like they don't even see you or care. Most people are too busy talking on the phone. If they did notice, I'm surprised they stopped. Maybe they stopped because it was an infant. If it was two adults fighting, I doubt anyone would have stopped.

[bernardrizzo]

This was on a fairly deserted road. For some reason, more people than usual were on that road. They did try and physically stop the attack, but, if my memory serves me correct, they were elderly. I could be wrong.

I will not comment on what if's. I am going to honor the boards rules.

That being said, I doubt anyone would have NOT stopped this man if they had the means to do so.

If I read the statues correctly, "Imminent, grave physical harm/danger" can apply to yourself or to another. However, I am NOT an Attorney and there are many, many more knowledgeable people on this board.

I cannot think of a more heinous and horrifying act than to beat a toddler to death. The child was unrecognizable. The man/father must have been insane as he kept talking about "the child had demons in him".

I wish someone had happened by sooner. God rest that poor child's soul.

[Trinity]

Totally tragic indeed.....I can't say that I envy the position any of the folks involved were in - I can't imagine what would have been going through their minds.... I just pray that the little boy died quickly & didn't suffer too long...makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it.

[Dan M.]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Totally tragic indeed.....I can't say that I envy the position any of the folks involved were in - I can't imagine what would have been going through their minds.... I just pray that the little boy died quickly & didn't suffer too long...makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it.

Was that you in the comments or a different Trinity?

[Dan M.]

Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis

I'm not going to answer what I would do, but I'm just surprised people even noticed this at all. The way people drive on the roads now, it's like they don't even see you or care. Most people are too busy talking on the phone.

Anybody on the road had to notice. The dude stopped facing the wrong way in the lane on a narrow 2 lane road.

[Justaguy]

Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis

Maybe they stopped because it was an infant. If it was two adults fighting, I doubt anyone would have stopped.

Estimated age of the victim: 18 to 24 months.

That relieves me of the decision making I would undertake in a "mutual combat" situation.

If it were adults, I would:
Stop. Call authorities. Be a good witness. POSSIBLY intervene (highly dependent on the situation).

Since the victim was an infant:
Stop the perpetrator though any means at hand. That doesn't always mean lethal force. If I'm driving a car, I can improvise an weapon.

That is as far as I will delve into the world of "What if".

[Greg-Dawg®]

Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis

The way people drive on the roads now, it's like they don't even see you or care...If it was two adults fighting, I doubt anyone would have stopped.

The reason why is that CA doesn't enforce the Good Samaritan law, like other states. So whether you witness a car accident or an idiot beating to death a child, you don't have to be involved.

With situations like this, go back to your CCW training or contact your CCW instructor regarding getting involved in a 3rd party scenario.

[solo3937]

I guess I should have phrased my post in a different manner. It appears that my original post was interpreted as a "what if" tactical scenario for the mall ninjas out there. I apologize for violating the rules of this forum.

I wanted to get some feedback on the legal issues that would ensue if I had the misfortune of being "first on the scene" and forced to use my firearm. This would of course be after calling 911 and failing in the use of non lethal force. Let me clarify, I fail to stop the assault on the child, through non lethal means, and I am not the focus of further assault. Can this be considered a justifiable use of lethal force? Consider this also, its a dark, country road, dead child on the ground, a dead adult on the ground, and me with a smoking gun in my hand. Not the best looking situation for me. Lets not forget the fact that I'm not LEO, just an ordinary citizen. Granted that is a worst case scenario, but maybe now you can understand where I'm coming from.

Wow, another "what if" sorry guys. Just trying to get my head around this.

Thanks.

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by Dan M.

Was that you in the comments or a different Trinity?

gig? what comments?

[Spicy McHaggis]

Originally Posted by solo3937

I guess I should have phrased my post in a different manner. It appears that my original post was interpreted as a "what if" tactical scenario for the mall ninjas out there. I apologize for violating the rules of this forum.

I wanted to get some feedback on the legal issues that would ensue if I had the misfortune of being "first on the scene" and forced to use my firearm. This would of course be after calling 911 and failing in the use of non lethal force. Let me clarify, I fail to stop the assault on the child, through non lethal means, and I am not the focus of further assault. Can this be considered a justifiable use of lethal force? Consider this also, its a dark, country road, dead child on the ground, a dead adult on the ground, and me with a smoking gun in my hand. Not the best looking situation for me. Lets not forget the fact that I'm not LEO, just an ordinary citizen. Granted that is a worst case scenario, but maybe now you can understand where I'm coming from.

Wow, another "what if" sorry guys. Just trying to get my head around this.

Thanks.

The simple answer (if you consider the penal code simple, that is):

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

Still doesn't mean you wouldn't end up in civil court. People sue for everything.