A horrible incident, thoughts

[Bombard]

If the child was already dead when you used lethal force to prevent the adult from continuing the attack, would that exception hold?

[naganthunter]

Having a two year old of my own, every time I read about something like this it makes my stomach turn.

I won't get into the what if's either. I will say that god forbid I somehow went completely nuts (as it sounds like this guy did) and was harming my child, I pray that someone WOULD intervene and stop me, and I'm sure that most of us who have children would feel the same way - even though the mere thought of that happening is beyond anything we'd EVER imagine happening.

Just my .02

In any event, my thoughts and prayers go out to the family of that child, and I'm sure he's sitting on God's knee today.

[Dan M.]

Originally Posted by Trinity

gig? what comments?

Following the article:

Trinity1 wrote:

"Shoot the guy in the leg"????? What so the taxpayer can pay THOUSANDS for his defense just to hear him whine about his anger management issues, psychiatric problems (which he no doubt has) or drug addition, etc etc, all costing THOUSANDS more in treatment?????? Ooooo maybe in prison for just a couple of years-AGAIN @ our expense?????? My but you're awfully freehanded with our money.
$2 bullet right between the eyes= BRAVO!!!!!

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by Dan M.

Following the article:

Trinity1 wrote:

Ahh, gotcha...wasn't me - different Trin. Sorry, hadn't scrolled down on the link...

[NSP]

Originally Posted by Bombard

If the child was already dead when you used lethal force to prevent the adult from continuing the attack, would that exception hold?

How would you know the child was dead? In all honesty after the attacker has ceased (either by being shot dead or restrained by other bystanders) the next IMMEDIATE thing you do is check for pulse and breathing and start CPR.

And once you've started CPR you are committed to keep doing CPR untill someone relieves you. If you are not a trained EMT or otherwise you cannot make the call on weather someone is deceased or not, therefore you always assume there is life left in the body.

At least that's what I've always been trained.

*edit* I did not know my previous post was breaking a rule, I tried to edit it to conform but the "edit" button is no longer available

[maldos]

Originally Posted by Bombard

If the child was already dead when you used lethal force to prevent the adult from continuing the attack, would that exception hold?

You would not know if the child was dead. A lawyer would have a field day concerning your training and ability to pronounce and determine death. Your assumption would be that the child was still alive until officially pronounced dead. There are obvious exceptions to everything, such as decapitation.

[Spicy McHaggis]

Originally Posted by Bombard

If the child was already dead when you used lethal force to prevent the adult from continuing the attack, would that exception hold?

I used to be an EMT-B (I let my cert expire) and we could only say if someone was "dead" when one of the five circumstances were evident (DRIED):

- Decapitation
- Rigor Mortis
- Incineration
- Evisceration of heart or brain
- Decomposition

Outside of one of those five, a patient was alive. Even if that person wasn't breathing and had no pulse, you can't say that person is dead.

[Tom98915]

The guy got what he deserved. Plain and simple. If I stumbled upon him beating the child to death, at minimum I would have held him at gunpoint for the cops to scoop up. Otherwise, I probably would shoot him if he tried to continue committing grave bodily harm to the child to protect the life of the child.

[Quietpi]

It was just a few miles from my house. The area is very rural, very dark. A pickup pointing the wrong way wouldn't be all that unusual. It could very well have been a farmer out irrigating. And people drive pretty fast out there, so what would have been obvious one second might not have been obvious at all the next second. Without knowing the totality of circumstances, it is really hard to judge whether each person acted responsibly or not. I don't understand why the fire chief couldn't stop him, but we really don't have enough information on any of it at this point to judge anybody.

Could a person intervening be sued? Yes, but having gathered the information that was eventually available to everyone who stopped, the suit would have been short-lived indeed. It still would have cost the defendant in the lawsuit, but life involves more than money. If I go out a pauper because I tried to save a life, then so be it.

Also, that's why insurance is a good idea. The suit will probably be for more than your policy by a factor of ten or so, but when an insurance company faces the loss of even one million, they get really interested in defending their client. That's really what you get with an insurance policy -- a defense team courtesy of the insurance company.

Would you &/or I have taken action? Probably so, and the result would have been about the same with regard to the scumbag, but it would have been a little sooner. Might that have made any difference? There's no way to know for sure until after the fact. Therefore, the question is moot.

Besides, I reckon that most of us here would find that we are "sheepdogs."
If you don't know what that means, you need to read Grossman, "On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs." Here's a link:

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

I do a lot of driving around here at night, often in the country. I could well have been one of the people who happened on the scene. Would I have stopped him? Yes. And in the sense that Grossman talks about, I wish I had been there. I might have made a difference.

And there's a problem with holding somebody at gunpoint. It takes you out of the action. I retired from the Guard as a medic, and I still carry my aid bag. My primary interest would have been the child, no matter what he looked like -- not the late idiot with too many orifices.

I don't see this thread as being a "what-if." Rather, it see it as an opportunity to think about the possibilities that every one of us faces. And those of us on this forum, particularly, are mindful of our ability do apply deadly force. Each of us lives with a realization of the consequences. We must also realize the consequences of not acting.

[naganthunter]

Originally Posted by Quietpi

Also, that's why insurance is a good idea. The suit will probably be for more than your policy by a factor of ten or so, but when an insurance company faces the loss of even one million, they get really interested in defending their client. That's really what you get with an insurance policy -- a defense team courtesy of the insurance company.

I'm going to digress a little OT here, so my apologies to the OP.

I totally agree with this - but you'd be smart to retain your own counsel as well just to make sure that the insurance company doesn't screw something up that would hang you out to dry.

Remember that insurance companies are a business, and they want to make money. Most times, I'd say you'd get a fine defense. However, some insurance companies are only interested in trying to minimize exposures, aka the bottom line. That may not be in your best interest when trying to protect your own assets!

[solo3937]

[/quote]I don't see this thread as being a "what-if." Rather, it see it as an opportunity to think about the possibilities that every one of us faces. And those of us on this forum, particularly, are mindful of our ability do apply deadly force. Each of us lives with a realization of the consequences. We must also realize the consequences of not acting.[/quote]

Quietpi,
Thank you for getting the gist of my post. These are the thoughts that I was pondering when I first heard of this incident. The link you provided was also much appreciated.

I'm a almond grower in the Cortez area of northern Merced county, and I have run numerous "tweakers" off of my property. I've been lucky so far and not had any violent encounters, but you never know with these types. I don't know if you remember that girl that was burned alive a few months ago? Yeah, right down the road over in Ballico. Way too close for comfort. Yes, I have been carrying everyday since I got my ccw.

[akulahawk]

All I'll say about this is that there is a time and place for everything. I'm a Paramedic and sheepdog by nature. I don't know exactly what I'd have done, but I suspect whatever I'd have done, it would have been appropriate.

As to knowing if someone is actually dead, outside of some fairly basic instances or a couple others if I have equipment with me, they're considered to be alive and will get the full efforts.

[wcpassegai]

Everyone has $0.02, and I suppose I do too.

When you think about it, everyone who has taken the trouble to obtain a California CCW is probably the type of person who would have done something to help the child in this case. And legally, since you would have been justified in using lethal force to protect yourself had you been in the child's shoes in this case, you supposedly could do so and survive the aftermath - if you could convince a jury (either criminal or civil or both) of what you saw when you happened on the scene.

The other point of view is the one expressed to me when I was counseled once by a Palm Springs PD watch commander when I had intervened in a situation at a movie theater (a man was slapping a woman around in front of the theater). He told me that "even if the man was choking the woman to death, it is not your disaster, and humans are not an endangered species."

[G30 Steve]

Originally Posted by wcpassegai

He told me that "even if the man was choking the woman to death, it is not your disaster, and humans are not an endangered species."

As a fellow human being the Watch Commander was wrong. As a WC, representing his department, he said what he had to say.

[Dan M.]

Originally Posted by wcpassegai

He told me that "even if the man was choking the woman to death, it is not your disaster, and humans are not an endangered species."

So some day if he's being choked by a bigger guy, it'd be interesting to get down close and ask him if he needs any help, or is it okay since humans aren't endangered. "Blink twice for 'yes.'"