CCW on UC Irvine

[NiteQwill]

Here is my reply from my school's police department to an email I sent a few days ago concerning the issue, CSU Long Beach:

The regulations you've inquired about can be found at the website http:csulb.edu/regs and in hard copy at a variety of on campus locations, including the Office of Student Services, Student Life & Development Offices, Office of Safety and Risk Management, Office of the President, and the University Police Department to name a few.

As for the outcome of a disciplinary process "...[that] may result in expulsion or firing of an
employee...", I would not be able to speculate upon that, but I can explain to you that the procedures you have cited are both accurate and the beginning of the criteria we would consider as to whether or not that person would be allowed to carry any weapon on campus.

In fact, our experience base is almost exclusive to police officers who are both on duty and off-duty (almost all of whom have as a condition of employment to remain armed when not at work), and we defer to the citation you have included.

In short, our position has been that if someone were not a currently employed police officer, we would inform them that the University employs a moratorium on weapons on campus in accord with the law, and we extend that to a variety of other instruments so as to avoid such concerns other weapons could bring even if they were part of a theater, cultrual or other academic demonstration. We have held this position for several years with full campus support and understanding and in those cases where exemptions have been sought, the criteria was rightly met and the activity was under University Police Department supervision.

I hope this response has been helpful to you.

Any insight into the above, bolded response?

[BonoVox]

Originally Posted by NiteQwill

Here is my reply from my school's police department to an email I sent a few days ago concerning the issue, CSU Long Beach:



Any insight into the above, bolded response?

I think they are telling you that you need to get university police to sign off. They are throwing CCW holder into the same category as a theatre student bringing a theatrical sword on to campus.

I think they are stumped honestly.

[NiteQwill]

Originally Posted by BonoVox

I think they are telling you that you need to get university police to sign off. They are throwing CCW holder into the same category as a theatre student bringing a theatrical sword on to campus.

I think they are stumped honestly.

I understood it that way also. Seems like a formal, written letter asking for permission to carry concealed on campus is another way of a school asking for a "good cause." Don't we already provide that within the extent and legalities of California law

Anyhow, I'm going to email the police officer back and keep pressing, in a nice way, the issue. The worse they can do is not respond to my emails. In that case, I'll just walk to the department between classes.

[Hoser]

Originally Posted by BonoVox

I think they are stumped honestly.

I think Bono put it perfectly. They're likely stumped. Probably, as someone else said, because we're not shall issue and they don't deal with it that often. The link they cite references 626.9 and 12025, both of which exempt CCW holders.

[Hoser]

Originally Posted by NiteQwill

Anyhow, I'm going to email the police officer back and keep pressing, in a nice way, the issue. The worse they can do is not respond to my emails. In that case, I'll just walk to the department between classes.

Think about sending them the below link and tell them that's UCI's take on it (the guy who wrote to "ask an officer" did a good job of following the logic/code sections.)

If you do need to press them nicely, remind them about how the sections exempt CCW and why aren't they honoring it. If they tell you again that they're "in accord with the law" ask them what law...ask for code sections.

(UCI Police | Ask an Officer


.

[NiteQwill]

Originally Posted by Hoser

Think about sending them the below link and tell them that's UCI's take on it (the guy who wrote to "ask an officer" did a good job of following the logic/code sections.)

If you do need to press them nicely, remind them about how the sections exempt CCW and why aren't they honoring it. If they tell you again that they're "in accord with the law" ask them what law...ask for code sections.

(UCI Police | Ask an Officer


.

I just sent the officer a reply and will be waiting for anything further. Below is a little excerpt from my email. All the non-sense stuff I left out. I don't know if it will change anything but it seems as though the school's PD has a "they don't know either" mentality.

I will include the above link as necessary if/when he replies.

The penal code referenced on campus regulations you mentioned, California PC, Section 626.9, has referenced exemptions to both sworn peace officers, retired peace officers (Section 12027 and LEOSA of 2004), and legal holders of concealed weapons permits (section l). My confusion stems from the lack of specific documentation the school and CSU system has regarding the latter of those legally 3 exempted areas.

Unofficially, it may seem that a student or employee of the CSU school system may be suspended, expelled, and/or terminated for reasons of bringing a concealed weapon on campus even if they are within the legal limits of posted school regulations and State law [if, as required by some county Sheriffs, the holder presents their concealed weapons permit to a CSU Peace Officer when required to, revealing their legal status to carry concealed as being so].

[NikNak]

Originally Posted by Bombard

"Most weapons are not permitted on campus. This list is just a few examples to give you an idea. any knife including a belt buckle knife, dirk, dagger, cane sword, pen knife, lipstick knife, switchblade, butterfly knife or any knife that has a blade longer than 2 ½ inches, opens automatically or has more than one sharp edge "

Since it says "just a few examples to give you an idea" makes it look like it's not the policy. And it's not the law.

626.10 b Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, or knife having a fixed blade longer than 21/2 inches upon the grounds of, or within, any private university, the University of California, the California State University, or the California Community Colleges is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison.

Sooo , my VanAdestine, Randal, Scagel WWII fightning knife is not allowed?
VANADESTINE HAND FORGED U.S. FIGHTING KNIVES & HUNTING KNIVES
Darn. The Roamns made such nice daggers.

[Bombard]

Originally Posted by NikNak

Sooo , my VanAdestine, Randal, Scagel WWII fightning knife is not allowed?
VANADESTINE HAND FORGED U.S. FIGHTING KNIVES & HUNTING KNIVES
Darn. The Roamns made such nice daggers.

As near as I can diagram out the code, that is correct.

Here's the really odd thing. As near as I can figure, when I pick up my daughter at pre-school, the .40 IWB on the strong side is legal. The Leatherman on the weak side isn't.

[NiteQwill]

Here is my second reply from the CSU Officer:

Your review of the possibility of an individual who, while legally possessing a permit to carry a concealed weapon may still be subject to withdrawl/suspension from campus, is correct. There are a variety of conditions that might develop after a CCW permit is issued to an individual who then demonstrates some form of behavior that is cosnidered threatening, unlawful or at-risk. This could happen days, months, even years after receiving a CCW, as you might imagine. In these cases, the individual would be contacted, and appropriate legal remedy would be taken to assure the well-being of this person and all others who would be/had been in the area. Once the threat is mitigated, and hopefully fully relieved, and the likelihood of similar actions in the future were effectively negated, then that person would be afforded the opportunity to return to the campus; the disposition of the CCW subject to any other legal review or process.

Again, these circumstances are very unusual, but I am quite confident that the processes and communication network of our university communtity is remarkably effective and would alert us to such concerns immediately, allowing us to make very-well informed decisions on behalf of of the campus. I would also like you to know that our campus works very diligently to maintain excellent lines of such communication in a variety of groupings, and I have participated with all of these recognized committees to meet the highest and best safety levels of our campus for many years.

Your inquiries have been very valuable to our "Teachable Moments" process in reviewing the actions taken at other institions recently. I greatly appreciate your pursuit of more information.

[sealbeach]

Originally Posted by Bombard

As near as I can diagram out the code, that is correct.

Here's the really odd thing. As near as I can figure, when I pick up my daughter at pre-school, the .40 IWB on the strong side is legal. The Leatherman on the weak side isn't.

You are correct...I always remove my small clip on Buck knife when going into my kid's schools, but I keep on my CCW. Strange.

[sealbeach]

Originally Posted by NiteQwill

Here is my second reply from the CSU Officer:

Quote:
Your review of the possibility of an individual who, while legally possessing a permit to carry a concealed weapon may still be subject to withdrawl/suspension from campus, is correct. There are a variety of conditions that might develop after a CCW permit is issued to an individual who then demonstrates some form of behavior that is cosnidered threatening, unlawful or at-risk. This could happen days, months, even years after receiving a CCW, as you might imagine. In these cases, the individual would be contacted, and appropriate legal remedy would be taken to assure the well-being of this person and all others who would be/had been in the area. Once the threat is mitigated, and hopefully fully relieved, and the likelihood of similar actions in the future were effectively negated, then that person would be afforded the opportunity to return to the campus; the disposition of the CCW subject to any other legal review or process.

Again, these circumstances are very unusual, but I am quite confident that the processes and communication network of our university communtity is remarkably effective and would alert us to such concerns immediately, allowing us to make very-well informed decisions on behalf of of the campus. I would also like you to know that our campus works very diligently to maintain excellent lines of such communication in a variety of groupings, and I have participated with all of these recognized committees to meet the highest and best safety levels of our campus for many years.

Your inquiries have been very valuable to our "Teachable Moments" process in reviewing the actions taken at other institions recently. I greatly appreciate your pursuit of more information.

***************************************

Is there a lawyer in the house? Can somebody translate that mumbo jumbo? I believe he/she entirely avoided your question, nice dance step.




or maybe more like this:

[sealbeach]

Originally Posted by NiteQwill

Here is my second reply from the CSU Officer:

Originally Posted by BonoVox

I think they are telling you that you need to get university police to sign off. They are throwing CCW holder into the same category as a theatre student bringing a theatrical sword on to campus.

I think they are stumped honestly.

You have a very good point--in what way are the campus security administrators qualified or able to make such a judgement? What are their criteria? The CCW holder already passed the GC test, per CA State law and the issuing agency.

[Hoser]

Originally Posted by sealbeach

Can somebody translate that mumbo jumbo? I believe he/she entirely avoided your question, nice dance step.

It sounds like he's begrudgingly admitting that CCW's are permitted. However, he also says we can go nuts after we're issued our permit so they need to err on the side of caution...

[NiteQwill]

Originally Posted by Hoser

It sounds like he's begrudgingly admitting that CCW's are permitted. However, he also says we can go nuts after we're issued our permit so they need to err on the side of caution...

Correct. I believe the officer is saying under the radar that a CCW is allowed but don't get caught with an unintentional brandish or do something stupid. Or since CCWs potentially may go wacko, the school MUST be careful.

[NikNak]

Originally Posted by NiteQwill

Correct. I believe the officer is saying under the radar that a CCW is allowed but don't get caught with an unintentional brandish or do something stupid. Or since CCWs potentially may go wacko, the school MUST be careful.

Hey, we're the normal ones ... in my experience, most in academia are the ones off kilter ...