CCW on UC Irvine

[Norseman]

Dear JandJDude:

May we assume that you will be taking this to the UCI Police Chief for written approval? Seems that you have gone this far. Why not take it to the max. I would, but only you can decide for yourself. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[PHM]

Originally Posted by sealbeach

True, however this issue seems to be fairly relevant to the entire spectrum of CCW in California: California owned and run institutions, Citations of CA law, discussion of WHAT the rules really are.

So far, the only rules cited on either CAL STATE or UNIV of CA websites have been only the CA laws, which we are familiar with, and know to provide an allowance for legal and valid CCW holders or LEO to carry at a school in the state of California.

Personally, I dont know if the existence of a University policy AGAINST CCW is just urban legend, or has been changed to comply with CA laws, already on the books. I will admit I never actually READ such a document.

We already know that state law exempts CCW holders from the restrictions against firearms at schools, the question that remains is what is the university policy on the topic, which can only apply to students, and all indications are that the "policy" is in fact the State law. The UCI police offer only the state law as the policy, and they are the ones enforcing the laws...I might tend to believe that IS the policy. There might be hope for California yet.

I agree with Seal Beach on this one and like I stated before i believe the policy is purposefully kept vague to discourage CCW in the first place. Unless you issuing agency specifically excludes schools I think you are ok to CCW on campus and I'm sure there are some students that do.

[Bombard]

[quote=sealbeach;38470]

Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis

Spicy, the "policy" does not seem to really exist, and by exist, I mean documented, printed and issued by a responsible Univ. staff member. We seem to be operating on myth and legend, with no clear written policy there is, essentially NO policy except what we have seen on their website.

IANAL but I might imagine the trial (if a DA would even take this) would go like this:

"Your Honor, he violated school policy!"

"Show me the policy that was violated"

"Well, we really don't have it written down, its something we just thought up"

"Well did he break any laws?"

"No, NO laws were broken"

"So you are accusing him of violating a policy which is neither written or documented anywhere?"

"Thats right, its school policy"

"case dismissed"

Maybe. But it might go

"Show me the policy that was violated"

"OK, here you go, the UCI written policy on CCW's on campus. Established by the final report of the Committee on Campus Safety, 1979, and signed by the Chancellor. There's this copy that was kept in the UCIPD storage cabinet, there is one in the admissions office, one in the library basement on microfilm, and one in the Chancellor's office."

Get it in writing from the PD chief, and I think you're covered.

[JandJDude]

Originally Posted by sealbeach

Thanks for taking the time and effort to actually meet in person with the guy. So he again is quoting a "policy"? But the policy is not in writing? Even more confusing...their policy cites state law on their website, no other university policy seems to exist, unless it it a "secret" policy that has never been published or revealed to any human???

Did the officer quote chaper and verse of the hidden policy or just that he "knew about it"?

Don't get me wrong, you have done a lot more towards getting these questions covered than anybody else has done...but your conversation seems to have left a few questiond dangling.

It IS in writing actually. If you go the UCI PD website (UCI Police | Welcome) right there on the homepage is a link to a PDF file which can be found here:

http://www.police.uci.edu/safety/doc...prohibited.pdf

On the second page is mentions "special circumstances" where a weapon might be allowed on campus. Although CCW is not listed, it would qualify for a "special circumstances". It goes on to say written permission is needed from the UCI PD.

[JandJDude]

Originally Posted by Norseman

Dear JandJDude:

May we assume that you will be taking this to the UCI Police Chief for written approval? Seems that you have gone this far. Why not take it to the max. I would, but only you can decide for yourself. Good luck with whatever you decide.

I will if/when I get my permit. I will be calling on Monday to make my appointment.

[Bombard]

Originally Posted by JandJDude

It IS in writing actually. If you go the UCI PD website (UCI Police | Welcome) right there on the homepage is a link to a PDF file which can be found here:

http://www.police.uci.edu/safety/doc...prohibited.pdf

On the second page is mentions "special circumstances" where a weapon might be allowed on campus. Although CCW is not listed, it would qualify for a "special circumstances". It goes on to say written permission is needed from the UCI PD.

The questions is, is that the policy, or is that an imperfect explanation of the applicable law?

It's not a completely accurate description of the law. CCW aside, as an example the PDF says

"Most weapons are not permitted on campus. This list is just a few examples to give you an idea. any knife including a belt buckle knife, dirk, dagger, cane sword, pen knife, lipstick knife, switchblade, butterfly knife or any knife that has a blade longer than 2 ½ inches, opens automatically or has more than one sharp edge "

Since it says "just a few examples to give you an idea" makes it look like it's not the policy. And it's not the law.

626.10 b Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, or knife having a fixed blade longer than 21/2 inches upon the grounds of, or within, any private university, the University of California, the California State University, or the California Community Colleges is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison.

A folding knife with a blade longer than 2 1/2" is legal on the grounds of the UC. Is it within policy? I don't know. Is that PDF the policy statement? If it is, it suggests that there are other, unnamed weapons that may be prohibited but which are not listed - and so we're back to the unwritten rules again.

It also says

"The punishment for having weapons on campus changes
with different kinds of weapons. Punishments can be
either or both fine and imprisonment. "

It doesn't mention termination, suspension or expulsion. But a fine or imprisonment can't come from university policy - making it look even less like a statement of policy.

[PHM]

Originally Posted by JandJDude

It IS in writing actually. If you go the UCI PD website (UCI Police | Welcome) right there on the homepage is a link to a PDF file which can be found here:

http://www.police.uci.edu/safety/doc...prohibited.pdf

On the second page is mentions "special circumstances" where a weapon might be allowed on campus. Although CCW is not listed, it would qualify for a "special circumstances". It goes on to say written permission is needed from the UCI PD.

That policy does nothing but quote the Penal Code.

[tango-52]

This is clearly another example of a government agency trying to restrict rights without following proper regulatory procedures. They are simply trying to spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) and hoping no one calls them on it.

[K-dog.v3]

It's called deep concealment.....

[Spicy McHaggis]

[quote=sealbeach;38470]

Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis

Spicy, the "policy" does not seem to really exist, and by exist, I mean documented, printed and issued by a responsible Univ. staff member. We seem to be operating on myth and legend, with no clear written policy there is, essentially NO policy except what we have seen on their website.

I was just generalizing my reply to his post that was generalizing about UC and Cal State schools not being private and how it was a policy not a law.

That PDF Link that was posted looks to me to be their policy.
http://www.police.uci.edu/safety/doc...prohibited.pdf

To paraphrase it:

What Kind of Weapon Can’t I Bring to
School?
Most weapons are not permitted on campus. This list is
just a few examples to give you an idea.
• any gun without written permission and in
accordance with California Penal Code

Sounds like according to this policy they would need the written permission, as well as any legallities associated with the penal code for having a firearm on campus. Students would need the written letter as well as their CCW license to carry on campus. If that "and" I bolded was an "or" then that would be a different story.

So basically, "No firearms on campus without written permission", regardless of CCW excemption. (Again, for students/faculty only since it is their policy).

Also, from one of their housing handbooks - http://www.housing.uci.edu/documents...e_handbook.pdf

Page 10:

FIREARM AND WEAPONS
Possession of firearms, BB guns, paintball guns, pellet guns and/or weapons is strictly prohibited anywhere on the campus.

UCI Police | Ask an Officer

[IAmASensFan]

Originally Posted by PHM

I knew I spelled it wrong, I just couldn't remember how to spell it. We aren't being graded for spelling here are we?

Yes, we are!

[PHM]

Originally Posted by IAmASensFan

Yes, we are!

Your not the teacher are you? Because if I remember correctly you still spell Check like this (cheque). We are all failing english if you are doing the grading!!!

[Hoser]

UCI Police | Ask an Officer

Notice that the officer doesn't state that if you're a student or faculty it does not apply to you. This guy called them on their so called "policy" and the officer had to fess up.

Your CCW allows you to carry on campus regardless if you're a student, faculty or member of the general public.

Police departments can't make policy that supercedes law. Sure, they'd like you to tell them you're carrying, but you're not required to if you're CCW.

Can we get one of those "beating a dead horse" smileys like other sites have.

[PHM]

Originally Posted by Hoser

UCI Police | Ask an Officer

Notice that the officer doesn't state that if you're a student or faculty it does not apply to you. This guy called them on their so called "policy" and the officer had to fess up.

Your CCW allows you to carry on campus regardless if you're a student, faculty or member of the general public.

Police departments can't make policy that supercedes law. Sure, they'd like you to tell them you're carrying, but you're not required to if you're CCW.

Can we get one of those "beating a dead horse" smileys like other sites have.

I agree Hoser, I think it's pretty clear. I would just keep a copy of this with me if I were a student.

[Hoser]

Originally Posted by PHM

I agree Hoser, I think it's pretty clear. I would just keep a copy of this with me if I were a student.

I thought I was being resourceful when I posted that link...I didn't even noticed you had used it in your post since it was near the bottom. That's why I often will hit enter/return a few times then put a period at the end of a post to move it up a bit (like below.)



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