CCW on school campuses...

[Greg-Dawg®]

Surprised no one has shared their thoughts on this one...

With the recent tragedy at Northern Illinois University , what do you guys think of CCWs on campuses?

Our great news media, CNN, had a great discussion with pro-CCW vs anti-CCW in our universities this morning. I couldn't find the video, but found this reference: CNN.com readers: Are we safe on campus? - CNN.com

Even though CA is a "May Issue" state, will CCW on campus even make a dent a making CA Shall issue?

I just fear for our campuses, especially USC and UCLA for anything bad to happen because of non-preparedness.

[PHM]

The only chance of shall issue in California will be a total change in the current legislature or a ballot initiative to put to a vote by the people, however I think if it were up to the peoples vote it would go down in defeat. Unfortunately there are too many liberals in California to hope for shall issue right now, hopefully that will change over time. Think about it, we are in a state where Arnold Schwarzenegger is called a Republican and a Conservative. For now we need to support pro CCW Sheriff's in all 58 Counties and go about a shall issue policy county by county.

[libertarian]

Originally Posted by Greg-Dawg®

I just fear for our campuses, especially USC and UCLA for anything bad to happen because of non-preparedness.

Every time a tragedy like this happens, the anti-gun lobbyists go crazy with rhetoric.

Want to actually prevent a shooting at a school? Announce, publically, that the school supports the right of any professor or staff member to legally CCW. Then, get some real armed security, and make sure they're trained to a reasonable standard. If the school is feeling high-risk, they can even pay to have trained snipers stationed on the rooftops on a rotating schedule.

I bet your run-of-the-mill madman will find an easier target.

[NikNak]

Want to actually prevent a shooting at a school? Announce, publically, that the school supports the right of any professor or staff member to legally CCW. Then, get some real armed security, and make sure they're trained to a reasonable standard. If the school is feeling high-risk, they can even pay to have trained snipers stationed on the rooftops on a rotating schedule.

***
I'll take first shift ....

[Rodsteal]

I don’t know that roof top snipers are the answer, but I do support the idea of CCW carrying professors and staff. Security is a good measure as well, but the problem you run into are wanna-be cops roaming the halls looking for a reason the shoot someone.

I think it is interesting that the guy who shot the mall shooter in Utah back in February of 2007 was an off duty cop with a concealed weapon. He happened to be there eating at a restaurant when he heard the shots. What’s more interesting is I had to go to the Utah paper to get that information.

It would be great if the media would mention that the guy who prevented more people from dying that day had a concealed weapon rather than talking about what type of gun this other monster with no soul had. All this does is add fuel to a fire of anti-gun loving people who feel guns are the problem when the real issue is education.

I truly believe that if more people thought other people were strapped, mall and university and school shooting would happen a lot less. It is easy to shoot a classroom full of un-armed students or a mall full of mothers shopping for children’s clothes. Put the same guy in a mall or classroom with only a few CCW's and the situation changes. Not so easy the shoot fish in a barrel if they have Springfield XD's or Kimbers.

[NikNak]

[quote=Rodsteal;37410]I think it is interesting that the guy who shot the mall shooter in Utah back in February of 2007 was an off duty cop with a concealed weapon. He happened to be there eating at a restaurant when he heard the shots. What’s more interesting is I had to go to the Utah paper to get that information.

It would be great if the media would mention that the guy who prevented more people from dying that day had a concealed weapon rather than talking about what type of gun this other monster with no soul had. All this does is add fuel to a fire of anti-gun loving people who feel guns are the problem when the real issue is education.
*************************

That Utah mall had a posted sign outside that did not allow CCWs..... I have eaten there and my brother-in-law lives in SLC. He has a CCW, but abides by the law as posted. So in effect, it was another "gun free" zone that was not exactly gun free by the perp and just glad the off duty LEO was there.

The Omaha mall also had signs posted as "no CCW" allowed. That mass shooter/suicider also didn't abide by this rule. We never really hear about the "no CCW" signs in the media.

[huna koa]

CCW's and LEO's are allowed in some of our schools and universities

[Rodsteal]

[quote=NikNak;37413]

Originally Posted by Rodsteal

I think it is interesting that the guy who shot the mall shooter in Utah back in February of 2007 was an off duty cop with a concealed weapon. He happened to be there eating at a restaurant when he heard the shots. What’s more interesting is I had to go to the Utah paper to get that information.

It would be great if the media would mention that the guy who prevented more people from dying that day had a concealed weapon rather than talking about what type of gun this other monster with no soul had. All this does is add fuel to a fire of anti-gun loving people who feel guns are the problem when the real issue is education.
*************************

That Utah mall had a posted sign outside that did not allow CCWs..... I have eaten there and my brother-in-law lives in SLC. He has a CCW, but abides by the law as posted. So in effect, it was another "gun free" zone that was not exactly gun free by the perp and just glad the off duty LEO was there.

The Omaha mall also had signs posted as "no CCW" allowed. That mass shooter/suicider also didn't abide by this rule. We never really hear about the "no CCW" signs in the media.

Thanks for the information. I have to take you at your word on this. Do you think the gunman picked that mall because he knew it was a gun free zone. If so, shame on the mall. I dont think the sign will be amended.

CCW's are very rare in CA especially in OC, so I have never seem a NO CCW sign. Turners has a no gun sign but CCW and LEO are welcome with open arms as long as they hoster and conceal.

Regardless of the signage posted, I still feel an armed society is polite society. I still think these things would happen less often if more people CCW'ed.

[sealbeach]

Originally Posted by huna koa

CCW's and LEO's are allowed in some of our schools and universities

They are allowed by law, but banned by policy of the University (Cal State and Univ. of Calif.). It really is a matter of getting caught, you would not be in violation of the law, but a student there would be in violation of University policy, possibly subject to being expelled from the University. Another difficult problem is that the majority of college students are under 21, not able to even buy a gun or get a CCW in California--assuming they have the required maturity to handle such issues (generally not).

Only a few weeks ago I had to take care of some paperwork at my old university, while standing in line (a familiar feeling washed over me), I wondered how many people WOULD have the maturity or ability to handle a CCW on campus....honestly, I think the number is pretty slim, but you don't need a fully armed student population, just enough to deter the bad guys and fools that keep trying this crap. It might only take a couple of armed people in a lecture hall to shut down a berzerk rampaging student.

[libertarian]

Originally Posted by huna koa

CCW's and LEO's are allowed in some of our schools and universities

According to the law, they're allowed. However, most schools and universities prohibit them by policy - which means if you are legally carrying a concealed weapon, and you're a student or employee of the university, you can be fired or expelled for carrying, even though you are breaking no law.

And in many states, you would be breaking the law to carry there, even if you had a permit to CCW.

I don't think it's a coincidence that madmen choose to go shoot up places they think will have no armed resistance.

[THE Gimper]

Originally Posted by sealbeach

They are allowed by law, but banned by policy of the University (Cal State and Univ. of Calif.). It really is a matter of getting caught, you would not be in violation of the law, but a student there would be in violation of University policy, possibly subject to being expelled from the University. Another difficult problem is that the majority of college students are under 21, not able to even buy a gun or get a CCW in California--assuming they have the required maturity to handle such issues (generally not).

Only a few weeks ago I had to take care of some paperwork at my old university, while standing in line (a familiar feeling washed over me), I wondered how many people WOULD have the maturity or ability to handle a CCW on campus....honestly, I think the number is pretty slim, but you don't need a fully armed student population, just enough to deter the bad guys and fools that keep trying this crap. It might only take a couple of armed people in a lecture hall to shut down a berzerk rampaging student.

John Lott's research makes that pretty clear. You don't need everyone carrying. Just the potential that there could be a few people carrying, and you don't know which ones, has a deterrent effect.

[Lee F. Smith]

[quote=Rodsteal;37422]

Originally Posted by NikNak

Thanks for the information. I have to take you at your word on this. Do you think the gunman picked that mall because he knew it was a gun free zone. If so, shame on the mall. I dont think the sign will be amended.

CCW's are very rare in CA especially in OC, so I have never seem a NO CCW sign. Turners has a no gun sign but CCW and LEO are welcome with open arms as long as they hoster and conceal.

Regardless of the signage posted, I still feel an armed society is polite society. I still think these things would happen less often if more people CCW'ed.

A big mistake that people make is that they confuse psychotic with stupid . I can assure you that it was considered. Some of the shooters that have survived and been interviewed have stated that this was one of their considerations. Gun free zones are indeed dangerous places.

[huna koa]

Originally Posted by libertarian

According to the law, they're allowed. However, most schools and universities prohibit them by policy - which means if you are legally carrying a concealed weapon, and you're a student or employee of the university, you can be fired or expelled for carrying, even though you are breaking no law.

And in many states, you would be breaking the law to carry there, even if you had a permit to CCW.

I don't think it's a coincidence that madmen choose to go shoot up places they think will have no armed resistance.

altho I was referring only to California; and I'm not referring to students or employees of same; nor am I either of the aforementioned; I have CCW'd on campus in Cali with those at the top knowing who I am.

[peanutlover]

[First, the necessary disclaimer: if you're carrying concealed, then, damnit, keep it concealed.]

In California it is not against the law, per se, to CCW in places where they post signs stating 'No CCW.' However, in Orange County it is against the Orange County Sheriff Department policy for you to do so (at least at the Pond, Anaheim Stadium, Dodger Stadium and the Staples Center.)

Those venues will contact OCSD if you're somehow 'caught' or found to be CCWing (God forbid.) OCSD will then pull your CCW license.

I believe this is a very bad policy for OCSD to follow. It forces CCW holders to become sheep/victims if they choose to patronize these venues.

And therein is the rub: some say vote with your feet and don't spend your money at these 'No CCW' places.

I tend to agree but it's not that easy in my circumstances. My family frequently receives free tickets to special access areas at a few of these 'No CCW' venues. My wife loves to attend, as does my young son. I'm not about to let them go alone, so I tag along.

If I CCW and am discovered I'll lose my license. I believe that's an unreasonable policy for OCSD to put forth.

True, there aren't yet many places where OCSD takes this line (that we know of) but where will this policy take us? Straight to Virginia Tech, NIU and in Utah at the Trolley Court.

If someone had killed the shooters at Virginia Tech or NIU while holding a CCW, would local law enforcement have pulled their license for CCWing in violation of 'No CCW' signs? If it happened in Orange County perhaps they would have.

That is an untenable policy and irresponsible for such a relatively 'pro-CCW' department. Yes, I'm grateful that OCSD has a generous CCW policy. Yes, I'm grateful my CCW issuance was not hindered by politics as it would have been had I lived in Los Angeles County. I'm very grateful because these are 2 steps forward. But this policy of pulling CCW licenses for CCWing in a 'No CCW' zone is 3 steps back.

It should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, if I'm CCWing and a private property owner asks me to leave his establishment I must and would leave. If I refuse I will be and should be arrested/charged for trespassing. That's California Penal Code 602, et seq.

If I willingly leave without a fuss and later that owner calls OCSD and complains because he had a sign stating 'No CCW' which he claims I ignored, OCSD in my opinion should politely tell the owner that the sign in question carries no legal weight and does not have the force of law.

OCSD should politely recommend to the owner that he be more careful who he lets into his establishment if he doesn't want certain law-abiding citizens' patronage.

The sign stating 'No CCW' should carry no more weight in the halls of the Orange County Sheriff's Department than a sign stating 'We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to Anyone.'

Anaheim Pond wands for weapons before the entrance. No problem, leave your piece in the car. They've got Anaheim's finest patrolling the halls so I feel relatively safe.

Anaheim Stadium and Dodger Stadium do not wand for weapons. They post signs stating 'No Weapons.' There are no organized police patrols that I've seen. I don't feel secure, especially down in LA (my bias.)

If I was to CCW at these last 2 venues I wouldn't be 'discovered' unless I suffered very bad luck and had a very accidental exposure or if I was forced to defend myself or my family.

If that occurred I believe OCSD should not penalize the CCW holder by pulling their license.

[IAmASensFan]

Originally Posted by Rodsteal

Thanks for the information. I have to take you at your word on this. Do you think the gunman picked that mall because he knew it was a gun free zone. If so, shame on the mall. I dont think the sign will be amended.

CCW's are very rare in CA especially in OC, so I have never seem a NO CCW sign. Turners has a no gun sign but CCW and LEO are welcome with open arms as long as they hoster and conceal.

Regardless of the signage posted, I still feel an armed society is polite society. I still think these things would happen less often if more people CCW'ed.

I don't believe for a second that anyone specifically targets these places because there is or isn't a sign posted saying "No CCW". They are simply venues where they can be guaranteed to have plenty of targets of opportunity.



However, if a sign were posted that read "We actively encourage and invite law abiding holders of CCW's to shop here", I would pretty much bet my life that "Bucky" wouldn't show up there with murder on his mind...

The ONLY people who stop and consider these signs are the law abiding folks like those we have here.

Lets not forget, the ultimate goal of these shooters is to die. Each person they take out with them is simply a milestone, no more, no less. The shooters ONLY concern is about themselves, about the momentary gratification they will get while doing the act. They won't be around to get long term enjoyment out of it.


SLC has a policy where they "encourage" their off duty LEO's to NOT carry. The Mayor of SLC is a member of Bloomburgs Moronic Mayors.

During the Shooting at Trolley Square, there were 7 Off Duty and unarmed SLC police, and 1 Ogden PD member who was armed.

Some good reading: http://www.mcadamreport.org/The%20Mc...)-04-20-07.pdf