CCW on school campuses...

[BonoVox]

I don't believe for a second that anyone specifically targets these places because there is or isn't a sign posted saying "No CCW". They are simply venues where they can be guaranteed to have plenty of targets of opportunity.

Yeah pretty much have to agree on that. In two cases the students had attended those schools so it is obvious why they targeted them. In the church shootings in Colorado IIRC there was a connection there too.

Not to say someone with CCW would not have helped the situation. It sure did in Colorado Springs.

But if CCW's are more prominent and if an establishment advertised they were welcome, say a restaurant. I doubt some robber is going to target that restaurant.

My wife used to own a donut shop right off the 105 freeway. She gave free coffee to police officers and they hung out there a lot. Guess what? Even though she was only 4 offramps down the 105 from Compton. She was never robbed.

[Bombard]

Originally Posted by BonoVox

My wife used to own a donut shop right off the 105 freeway. She gave free coffee to police officers and they hung out there a lot. Guess what? Even though she was only 4 offramps down the 105 from Compton. She was never robbed.

I once had Bill Rosenberg, the guy that started Dunkin Donuts, as a guest speaker in class. He said in the early 50's, before they were franchised, they were robbed a lot, so he put in a "cops don't pay" policy. That both ended the robberies, and led to the stereotype of cops eating donuts.

[Dan M.]

Originally Posted by IAmASensFan

I don't believe for a second that anyone specifically targets these places because there is or isn't a sign posted saying "No CCW". They are simply venues where they can be guaranteed to have plenty of targets of opportunity.

I very much agree. Once upon a time somebody said, "Hey, we have a lot of people jammed in here. Suppose somebody fired a gun in here? A bunch of people could be hurt. We should put up a sign." But in real life, while law-abiding armed citizens carry all over the place without accidentally firing off their weapons and killing people , we have whack jobs saying, "Hey, there's a lot of people jammed in that place down the street/where my ex works/that fired me/that raised my taxes/etc. Suppose I fired my gun in there? A bunch of people could be hurt. Perfect!"

However, if a sign were posted that read "We actively encourage and invite law abiding holders of CCW's to shop here."...

THAT would be cool.

[JandJDude]

Originally Posted by BonoVox

My wife used to own a donut shop right off the 105 freeway. She gave free coffee to police officers and they hung out there a lot. Guess what? Even though she was only 4 offramps down the 105 from Compton. She was never robbed.

Almost every 7-11 I know of does that too. Free coffee for Cops. Tends to help deter crime.

[tdogg]

There is a chicken shop in Compton that offers a great deal on half a chicken (damned good chicken too) and some side dishes... guess where you can darned near always find a patrol car?

[Rodsteal]

Chipote and El Pollo Loco offer 1/2 for a badge and I alway see black and whites in the parking lot, which I like because they are two of my customers and I have one down the street from my house.

I am not saying that a nut-job is going to target a "gun-free" zone, I was asking to see waht everyone else thought. It would make sence if you were going to be a bully to gain the upper hand. I just fear we are going in the wrong direction as far as prevention.

Sure, not everyone should CCW, but the ones who want to and can, should. I dont think it should be easier, I like jumping though all the hoops because I passed and other wont. Like being in a club of GG's.

[Lee F. Smith]

All due respect to the other opinions, you can’t realistically think that these psychotic killers did not consider where they choose to carry out their plan. Obviously, the primary reason would be some perceived wrong done to them in the past; but to think that they did not consider their target is naive in the extreme. Once again don’t confuse psychotic with stupid. These individuals are predators that do consider what, where and when to carry out their attack.

To the original question I agree with on campus CCW, to Rodsteal’s question “Do you think the gunman picked that mall because he knew it was a gun free zone.” Absolutely, was it the primary reason? Doubtful, but only Peter Pan would say it played no role in the attack.

[Dan M.]

Originally Posted by Lee F. Smith

All due respect to the other opinions, you can’t realistically think that these psychotic killers did not consider where they choose to carry out their plan. Obviously, the primary reason would be some perceived wrong done to them in the past; but to think that they did not consider their target is naive in the extreme. Once again don’t confuse psychotic with stupid. These individuals are predators that do consider what, where and when to carry out their attack.

To the original question I agree with on campus CCW, to Rodsteal’s question “Do you think the gunman picked that mall because he knew it was a gun free zone.” Absolutely, was it the primary reason? Doubtful, but only Peter Pan would say it played no role in the attack.

I think it's kind of a chicken and egg sort of question. You don't have one without the other, BUT he chose to go to the gun free zone when it was being occupied by the dozens of targets. No point in going if there's not a bunch of targets, even if it was the biggest gun free zone in the whole wide world.

[kahrcarry]

Originally Posted by Lee F. Smith

All due respect to the other opinions, you can’t realistically think that these psychotic killers did not consider where they choose to carry out their plan. Obviously, the primary reason would be some perceived wrong done to them in the past; but to think that they did not consider their target is naive in the extreme. Once again don’t confuse psychotic with stupid. These individuals are predators that do consider what, where and when to carry out their attack.

To the original question I agree with on campus CCW, to Rodsteal’s question “Do you think the gunman picked that mall because he knew it was a gun free zone.” Absolutely, was it the primary reason? Doubtful, but only Peter Pan would say it played no role in the attack.

i agree.these aholes choose places that don't have people carrying guns.if i were a criminal i'd pick a place like that.maybe one that had sercurity guards with no guns.its the same reason why you don't see alot of gun shops being robbed.they might get their arse shot off.

[Rodsteal]

Originally Posted by kahrcarry

i agree.these aholes choose places that don't have people carrying guns.if i were a criminal i'd pick a place like that.maybe one that had sercurity guards with no guns.its the same reason why you don't see alot of gun shops being robbed.they might get their arse shot off.

Easy...You cant make a blanket statement like that. We just had a gun store in Riverside, CA robbed and the BG's even took the employees guns right off them.

While it seems like a logical target selection for a BG wanting to ice a ton of innocent moms and students, there are other situations where the BG picks a place he is familiar with or frequents. IE McDonalds in the 80's, a hand full of post offices, other mall and school shootings. Sure, most of these BG's felt they had a score to settle, and it may be in the mind set to pick "gun free zones", but as we see from the past, not always the case.

[IAmASensFan]

Originally Posted by JandJDude

Almost every 7-11 I know of does that too. Free coffee for Cops. Tends to help deter crime.

Unfortunately, that policy led to an Officer being murdered in Lake Forest a few years back.

On Saturday, June 12, 1999, Deputy Brad Riches was brutally murdered in the city of Lake Forest. At approximately 12:52 a.m., Riches was on routine patrol, driving through the parking lot of a 7-eleven store.

Without warning or provocation, a man carrying an AK-47 assault rifle opened fire on Riches while he sat in his patrol car.

Riches valiantly began an emergency radio transmission, but succumbed to the more that two-dozen assault rifle rounds that were fired at him.

During the news conference, Orange County Sheriff Mike Carona called the attack "sudden and unprovoked," and "as brutal as you can possibly imagine."

Five hours after the shooting, deputies and investigators arrested 39-year-old Maurice Gerald Steskal, a Lake Forest man who allegedly walked into the mini-market with an assault rifle and told the clerk that his intention was not to rob the store, but to use the weapon against police.

Riches, Bradley J.

[IAmASensFan]

Originally Posted by Lee F. Smith

All due respect to the other opinions, you can’t realistically think that these psychotic killers did not consider where they choose to carry out their plan. Obviously, the primary reason would be some perceived wrong done to them in the past; but to think that they did not consider their target is naive in the extreme. Once again don’t confuse psychotic with stupid. These individuals are predators that do consider what, where and when to carry out their attack.

To the original question I agree with on campus CCW, to Rodsteal’s question “Do you think the gunman picked that mall because he knew it was a gun free zone.” Absolutely, was it the primary reason? Doubtful, but only Peter Pan would say it played no role in the attack.

They keep hitting schools and malls because they have repeatedly seen that it works in the past.

Do you think these guys sit down and brainstorm a list of pros and cons for multiple targets before deciding on a specific one? No, they choose them because history has shown that they can kill a maximum number of people in a minimal amount of time, and more often than not, they have a personal attachment to that location.

Gun policy or no gun policy, VT and The Colorado Springs were hit because those places were important locations in the involved peoples lives. The target location is known well in advance...they don't choose the target, they are driven towards that target for a reason...

Ultimately, they are looking for the easiest score...plenty of targets of opportunity. The weapon policy role is tertiary at best. Neither the Omaha attack or the Church attack publicly advertised no gun policies, yet it didn't deter the attacks that occured there.

If someone were to open fire in my church, would it be because of a no gun policy? No, it would be because they have a problem with the teaching, or their wife or kids are on campus while in the midst of a custody battle.

Quite frankly, if there were no signs, and the implication was there that there were armed security, would it stop someone?

Not necessarily...Look at the Colorado Church incident. I can guarantee that there is unspoken knowledge that there are armed security there...EVERY mega church has armed security. Trust me, I know this as FACT.

Yet that didn't stop the guy.

I will conceed that saying the sign has NO influence was probably an exaggeration...I will continue to argue that I don't believe it has as much power in the decision making process, because there are no choices being made...these people are hitting these places because of some sort of obsessive reason.

I WILL agree that places where people are KNOWN to be carrying guns deter crime, but I will not agree that gun free zones are picked solely because they are labled "Gun Free Zones".

[1buba]

Originally Posted by Lee F. Smith

All due respect to the other opinions, you can’t realistically think that these psychotic killers did not consider where they choose to carry out their plan. Obviously, the primary reason would be some perceived wrong done to them in the past; but to think that they did not consider their target is naive in the extreme. Once again don’t confuse psychotic with stupid. These individuals are predators that do consider what, where and when to carry out their attack.

To the original question I agree with on campus CCW, to Rodsteal’s question “Do you think the gunman picked that mall because he knew it was a gun free zone.” Absolutely, was it the primary reason? Doubtful, but only Peter Pan would say it played no role in the attack.

Lee,
With all do respect - i don't think they think about the "no guns" signs at all. I think that for the most part, the public (especially in CA) assumes that no one is carrying. I think the thing about schools and malls is the target rich environments. The hallways in both are packed pretty tight at times and I think thats what these idiots are looking for. I think it depends on "why" they are doing what they are doing. If they just want to destroy a lot of lives, a school or mall is the place to do it. However, we have seen people go in to gun stores and hold them up, even shooting folks there. Again, I think that the reason is "why".

I think the only time that the "they might shoot back" thought will come into play is in some of the back woods places in Tx, Id, etc. Not in the big cities. Folks are conditioned that NO ONE (as far as they know) will be carrying.

[NikNak]

Originally Posted by Rodsteal

Easy...You cant make a blanket statement like that. We just had a gun store in Riverside, CA robbed and the BG's even took the employees guns right off them.

Good news here ... the 5 BGs involved have now been arrested and one was even trying to sell guns out of his backpack on the streets of Ontario .. they have recovered a few of the pieces, but not all. It was a manner of good memories of employees to check the camera from the day earlier and good policework for recognition and digging deep. I only wish waterboarding was allowed in Riverside ....

[IAmASensFan]

Originally Posted by Rodsteal

Easy...You cant make a blanket statement like that. We just had a gun store in Riverside, CA robbed and the BG's even took the employees guns right off them.

Yes indeed...I had forgotten about that!!!