Excemptions for Armed Security Officer?

[hygyliac]

Originally Posted by cwp228

Whatever. I am just citing exact wording from the HSC handbook. Exemption is there and they are perfectly legit, what you want to do with it is your own business (no pun intended).

An exemption that I used to have was "Competitive Shooter". They would issue the competitor a card stating their NRA Number and classification. I had two cards, one was for Bullseye pistol and the other was High Power rifle. In Murietta, it was an exemption. Four months later in the same place it was not. Apparently the DROS they did 4 months earlier was passed by DOJ even though technically the exemption was no longer accepted. Two FFLs that I know personally have given me the same advice. Both have very strong relationships with LE and travel circles that we don't and can't as a general rule. I would not put it out of the realm of possibility that they know something that we don't. If X-91 is acceptable to the FFL that you are dealing with, then while you can go for it. The better for thiose that can use that exemption. But is the FFL refuses to accept it as an axemption to the HSC, then atleast we may have been given a subtle indication of what may be coming down the pike.
Thanks everyone, it is good to have the opportunity to read various experiences past, present and possibly future!?!

[CCWInstructor]

Originally Posted by cwp228

Whatever. I am just citing exact wording from the HSC handbook. Exemption is there and they are perfectly legit, what you want to do with it is your own business (no pun intended).

Yes I am aware of that. I'm also aware you are not the licensee, so you don't have to worry about. Your boss does.

[cwp228]

He certainly does, and if there were any problem using this exemption, with multiple DOJ audits done to OT I would've already hear from Gregg about this.

[cwp228]

By the way, PC 12033 is related to the expose carry permit on duty, so not just any license issue by BSIS and neither have I sold any gun to anyone that does not have a expose carry permit issue by BSIS when I use X91. I know your issue is with the paperwork but as far as I am concern, guards who have take the training course and actually fire their gun is far more qualify then those who just read the HSC book and take a test that even first grader can pass.

[CCWInstructor]

GREAT!!!!

Tell me how you are going to handle loss prevention security. They are plain cloths and not uniform. Think it through. Do they need to show up in uniform so you can take a picture of them with the gun?

[cwp228]

Question: Is this "lost prevention security in plain cloth" being a job function within the security company, or is there one specific catagory in BSIS registry? From what I can see in regards to security guard:

7583.23. The bureau shall issue a firearms permit when all of the
following conditions are satisfied:
(a) The applicant is a licensee, a qualified manager of a
licensee, or a registered uniformed security guard.
(b) A certified firearms training instructor has certified that
the applicant has successfully completed a written examination
prepared by the bureau and training course in the carrying and use of
firearms approved by the bureau.
(c) The applicant has filed with the bureau a classifiable
fingerprint card, a completed application for a firearms permit on a
form prescribed by the director, dated and signed by the applicant,
certifying under penalty of perjury that the information in the
application is true and correct.
(d) The bureau has determined, after investigation, that the
carrying and use of a firearm by the applicant, in the course of his
or her duties, presents no apparent threat to the public safety, or
that the carrying and use of a firearm by the applicant is not in
violation of the Penal Code.
(e) The applicant has produced evidence to the firearm training
facility that he or she is a citizen of the United States or has
permanent legal alien status in the United States. Evidence of
citizenship or permanent legal alien status shall be that deemed
sufficient by the bureau to ensure compliance with federal laws
prohibiting possession of firearms by persons unlawfully in the
United States and may include, but not be limited to, Department of
Justice, Immigration and Naturalization Service Form I-151 or I-551,
Alien Registration Receipt Card, naturalization documents, or birth
certificates evidencing lawful residence or status in the United
States.
(f) The application is accompanied by the application fees
prescribed in this chapter.

So from above text, one who registered as Uniform Security Guard will be view as Uniform Security guard in BSIS and will be accept as HSC exemption, regardless of his actual job function within the security company. Guard Registration Card + Expose Firearm Permit = Exemption code X91, pretty simple to me. No Expose Firearm Permit, show me your HSC or other exemptions that may apply.

[CCWInstructor]

So..... what you saying is forget all the PC and ALL your above details and just copy the gun card and guard?

You've been talking to the regulatory side of DOJ and NOT the enforcement side. Enforcement is sworn, regulatory is not.

Regulatory added THREE Glock G21SF. Enforcement says remove two ASAP.

Regulatory says yes you can sell the Thompson 45/410 barrel. Enforcement says you will lose your Lisc and go to jail.

Enforcement confirmed today X91 IS NOT for security personnel. POST and federal ONLY.

[cwp228]

Sorry, that's not what I mean. Going into text of law: PC 12087(a)(11):

(a) The following persons, properly identified, are exempted from the handgun safety certificate requirement in subdivision (b) of Section 12801:

(11) Any person who is authorized to carry loaded firearms pursuant to subdivision (c) or (d) of Section 12031.

Now moving to 12031, particular sub-division (d):

(d) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following who have been issued a certificate pursuant to Section 12033. The certificate shall not be required of any person who is a peace officer, who has completed all training required by law for the exercise of his or her power as a peace officer, and who is employed while not on duty as a peace officer.

(1) Guards or messengers of common carriers, banks, and other financial institutions while actually employed in and about the shipment, transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure, bullion, bonds, or other thing of value within this state.

(2) Guards of contract carriers operating armored vehicles pursuant to California Highway Patrol and Public Utilities Commission authority (A) if hired prior to January 1, 1977, or (B) if hired on or after January 1, 1977, if they have completed a course in the carrying and use of firearms which meets the standards prescribed by the Department of Consumer Affairs.

(3) Private investigators and private patrol operators who are licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with Section 7512) of, and alarm company operators who are licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.6 (commencing with Section 7590) of, Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code, while acting within the course and scope of their employment.

(4) Uniformed security guards or night watch persons employed by any public agency, while acting within the scope and course of their employment.

(5) Uniformed security guards, regularly employed and compensated in that capacity by persons engaged in any lawful business, and uniformed alarm agents employed by an alarm company operator, while actually engaged in protecting and preserving the property of their employers or on duty or en route to or from their residences or their places of employment, and security guards and alarm agents en route to or from their residences or employer-required range training. Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to prohibit cities and counties from enacting ordinances requiring alarm agents to register their names.

(6) Uniformed employees of private patrol operators and private investigators licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with Section 7512) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code, while acting within the course and scope of their employment.

Now going on to 12033:

The Department of Consumer Affairs may issue a certificate to any person referred to in subdivision (d) of Section 12031, upon notification by the school where the course was completed, that the person has successfully completed a course in the carrying and use of firearms and a course of training in the exercise of the powers of arrest which meet the standards prescribed by the department pursuant to Section 7583.5 of the Business and Professions Code.

Now going on to BSIS code 7583.5

(a) Every licensee and any person employed and compensated by a licensee, other lawful business or public agency as a security guard or patrolperson, and who in the course of that employment or business carries a firearm, shall complete a course of training in the exercise of the powers to arrest and a course of training in the carrying and use of firearms. This subdivision shall not apply to armored vehicle guards hired prior to January 1, 1977. Armored vehicle guards hired on or after January 1, 1977, shall complete a course of training in the carrying and use of firearms, but shall not be required to complete a course of training in the exercise of the powers to arrest. The course of training in the carrying and use of firearms shall not be required of any employee who is not required or permitted by a licensee to carry or use firearms. The course in the carrying and use of firearms and the course of training in the exercise of the powers to arrest shall meet the standards which shall be prescribed by the Department of Consumer Affairs. The department shall encourage restraint and caution in the use of firearms.

(b) No uniformed employee of a licensee shall carry or use any firearm unless the employee has in his or her possession a valid firearm qualification card.

Combine that with 7583.23

7583.23. The bureau shall issue a firearms permit when all of the
following conditions are satisfied:
(a) The applicant is a licensee, a qualified manager of a
licensee, or a registered uniformed security guard.
(b) A certified firearms training instructor has certified that
the applicant has successfully completed a written examination
prepared by the bureau and training course in the carrying and use of
firearms approved by the bureau.
(c) The applicant has filed with the bureau a classifiable
fingerprint card, a completed application for a firearms permit on a
form prescribed by the director, dated and signed by the applicant,
certifying under penalty of perjury that the information in the
application is true and correct.
(d) The bureau has determined, after investigation, that the
carrying and use of a firearm by the applicant, in the course of his
or her duties, presents no apparent threat to the public safety, or
that the carrying and use of a firearm by the applicant is not in
violation of the Penal Code.
(e) The applicant has produced evidence to the firearm training
facility that he or she is a citizen of the United States or has
permanent legal alien status in the United States. Evidence of
citizenship or permanent legal alien status shall be that deemed
sufficient by the bureau to ensure compliance with federal laws
prohibiting possession of firearms by persons unlawfully in the
United States and may include, but not be limited to, Department of
Justice, Immigration and Naturalization Service Form I-151 or I-551,
Alien Registration Receipt Card, naturalization documents, or birth
certificates evidencing lawful residence or status in the United
States.
(f) The application is accompanied by the application fees
prescribed in this chapter.

I am based on above LAW to come to the conclusion that guard card and expose firearm permit are acceptable under X91.

So what you are telling me, is the LAW does not matter and DOJ enforcement are allow to make up their own rule which can and will be challenged in the court and they will lose? Since when did enforcement become legislation body?

[CCWInstructor]

Your mixing Penal Code with BSIS code. As logical as it may sound. That is not how the system works. Both are very seperate. Which is how and why you can up with you interpretation.

So . . .. Do you think DOJ firearms division enforces Penal Code or BSIS code.

[cksh8me]

CCWI what you are saying is the DOJ is a screwed up mess, full of incompetence. I don't have any problem believing that after all they have to answer to Moon Beam.

[SierraNevadaCCW]

There is a big difference between an armed security guard and his Consumer Affairs paperwork...and a Peace Officers Standards and Training Certification from the Dept. of Justice... BIG DIFFERENCE.


One is issued by a regulatory agency which regulates a private industry and the other is a certification by the State's law enforcement entity for peace officers.

I understand why you are doing what you are doing...there should be a seperate exemption for armed guards....but the bottom line is that there isn't...and an x91 is not proper for a security guard.

[cksh8me]

There shouldn't be a HSC card at all

[cwp228]

Following the text of the law itself, it did say and referece to Consumer Affair certificate for which I already posted. If it's pure POST certificate, X81 will be good enough, there are no need for X91 in the first place. The POST reference for the X91 from what I can see means those quasi-LEO who only did firearm portion of POST training but not the entire training.

For any federal agents, There are X32 for active and X35 for honorably retired provided they are/were sworn LEO, they don't need X91.

I totally agree there is a BIG difference between the POST training certificate and Guard card/Firearm Permit issue by Consumer affair, but we are only talking about firearm competency here good enough to be HSC exemption, not the rest.

If there is a WRITTEN CONFIRMATION from CA DOJ said that Consumer Affair issued certificate is no good for X91, then I stand corrected. Otherwise, it's all hear-say at this point. From all other things DOJ has done as far as limiting our firearm rights (lies, bending rules, scaring FFLs into not doing otherwise legal business), I wouldn't believe anything coming out of their agents mouth, only in writing.

[BonoVox]

Originally Posted by cksh8me

There shouldn't be a HSC card at all

Yep.

[cwp228]

Originally Posted by cksh8me

There shouldn't be a HSC card at all

For all of us on this site, probably not. So far with all the test I administered, I have not yet meet anyone who failed the test yet. I have only heard one failed at OT since HSC took place. Come on, 23/30 and you can pass? It is a joke.

On the other hand, the safe handling affidavit is probably a good thing... I have administer countless of those demostrations, and there are enough people who don't know how the gun they just bought works to raise the hair on the back of my head...