Attack at Convenience Store

[NSP]

Originally Posted by hbliam

I've never waited more then two rings on a 911 call. The reason is because I program in the direct number to dispatch in my phone for the City I live and work in. If you rely on the CHP you will wait for a long time because they have one or two offices taking the calls for the entire State.

This is when I had a company phone a few months ago. I didn't take time to customize anything on it because I never knew if I'd have a different phone the next day. Just 9-1-1-(send).

[hbliam]

Originally Posted by Hoser

(hijack)

I read in the paper a few months ago that the 911 system was going to be improved so that when it hit a tower in a given city (or county area) it would go directly to the respective PD/SO. Not sure if this has been implemented yet and if it was in OC only or state wide.

E911 for wireless phones is already working in OC but I'm not sure if it's in every City. It works in HB.

[Hoser]

...if he did not stop and continued beating the clerk with the brick I would have shot.

How about shooting the brick out of his hand?

(just kidding, of course....)

[Spicy McHaggis]

I always like what-ifs or questions based on actual scenarios because it makes you think "What whould I do?" if that happened. I don't look at any of them from the standpoint of CCW either. No point in introducing a weapon into something where homocide is not justifiable.

The first question I ask myself is "Do I need to get involved or be a good witness?" followed by "If I do get involved, can I take this guy out without using any weapons if he decides to turn on me?". And then, "Does he have any friends that are watching?"

If you're not sure what the answer is to the last two questions, then be a good witness.

[NSP]

Originally Posted by Hoser

How about shooting the brick out of his hand?

Well, was it a cinderblock or a red brick?

[EM2]

WOW,
Don't think I could just stand by & be a good witness.
I saw a similar senario on TV once and everyone in the room just watched. The witnesses outnumbered the bad guy 10 to1.
Made my blood boil.

Think about it this way. How would you feel about a room full of 'BEST WITNESS POSSIBLE' while your head was being smashed in???????????

[OCPilot]

Thank you all for your advise. I'm sure the best advise is to avoid involvement. The problem is, I don't know how I could live with myself if I could help someone and chose not to out of fear of the consequences. Isn't that the definition of cowardice?
I have a 19 year old daughter. I would not hesitate to risk my life to protect her from harm. I'm sure all of you would do the same for your family.
Now, that clerk or cashier has parents that feel exactly about their child as I do mine.
If you were there when someone was trying to kill my daughter, would you be choose to be a good witness?
How would you feel if your child or spouse was being attacked and you learned that I had the capability to stop it, or perhaps save them, and I chose to be a good witness?
I hope I never have to make the decision. But I think I would rather die or go to jail, than to allow my daughter (or yours) be killed by a criminal while I waited for the police to arrive.
Perhaps this really has nothing to do with a CCW. However, having one certainly raises the stakes.
I think preparing mentally is important. I appreciate your helping explore the choices and consequences.

[DVSmith]

Originally Posted by OCPilot

Thank you all for your advise. I'm sure the best advise is to avoid involvement. The problem is, I don't know how I could live with myself if I could help someone and chose not to out of fear of the consequences. Isn't that the definition of cowardice?
I have a 19 year old daughter. I would not hesitate to risk my life to protect her from harm. I'm sure all of you would do the same for your family.
Now, that clerk or cashier has parents that feel exactly about their child as I do mine.
If you were there when someone was trying to kill my daughter, would you be choose to be a good witness?
How would you feel if your child or spouse was being attacked and you learned that I had the capability to stop it, or perhaps save them, and I chose to be a good witness?
I hope I never have to make the decision. But I think I would rather die or go to jail, than to allow my daughter (or yours) be killed by a criminal while I waited for the police to arrive.
Perhaps this really has nothing to do with a CCW. However, having one certainly raises the stakes.
I think preparing mentally is important. I appreciate your helping explore the choices and consequences.

Well, this is why college philosophy classes are so intriguing. The classic case of "Who do you throw out of the raft to save the others?"

Did you consider that to intervene risked your ability to protect and provide for your daughter? Let's raise the stakes a little, you are the single parent of 3 children under the age of 10, what now? Do you risk their future to be a hero?

This question by its very nature is thought provoking, but labeling any response as "cowardice" is a bit off the compass. Everyone has their own circumstances. We all need to remember to respect those.

[hbliam]

Originally Posted by DVSmith

This question by its very nature is thought provoking, but labeling any response as "cowardice" is a bit off the compass. Everyone has their own circumstances. We all need to remember to respect those.

He asked if it was cowardice. He didn't point any fingers.

[DVSmith]

Originally Posted by hbliam

He asked if it was cowardice. He didn't point any fingers.

I read it as a rhetorical question, your interpretation may vary.

[NSP]

So at the end of this the right answer is to call 911 and watch as intently as possible hoping the other guy doesn't die from one of the repeated cranial brick blows from a psychopath?

Do we really not have the ability to save others anymore because of our own bureaucratic system?

To be able to use your CCW weapon is based upon fear of imenant death to you or another person. At what point is it okay to use it to protect others?

[1buba]

Originally Posted by NSP

So at the end of this the right answer is to call 911 and watch as intently as possible hoping the other guy doesn't die from one of the repeated cranial brick blows from a psychopath?

Do we really not have the ability to save others anymore because of our own bureaucratic system?

To be able to use your CCW weapon is based upon fear of imenant death to you or another person. At what point is it okay to use it to protect others?

The answer to your question will have to be answered by someone else, however, for an accurate answer, you need to communicate how risk averse you are to lawsuits.

[DVSmith]

Originally Posted by NSP

So at the end of this the right answer is to call 911 and watch as intently as possible hoping the other guy doesn't die from one of the repeated cranial brick blows from a psychopath?

Do we really not have the ability to save others anymore because of our own bureaucratic system?

To be able to use your CCW weapon is based upon fear of imenant death to you or another person. At what point is it okay to use it to protect others?

If you are looking for a right or wrong answer you have missed the obvious gist of this thread. Your answer is the only one that matters. Only you can decide what course is most appropriate for you knowing everything you can learn about your moral and social circumstances. I would no more impose my anticipated actions on you than I would expect you would impose yours on me.

I would only ask that you consider this carefully prior to finding yourself in such a predicament.

[X-ffdo]

Precisely why this is a dysfunctional society! There should be no question, as to what the action should be, in any civilized country you would try to stop the aggression. There should not even be any question about it. That explains why we have such crimes.

[Quietpi]

Interesting reading it is, this thread.

As I said in my first post, I can't say for sure what I would or would not have done -- Not enough information. This is a good example of the problems you get into when you try to deal with hypotheticals. One thing is for sure: my options are limited by what I have at hand, and what I don't have at hand.

And standing there while I thought of, and considered all the risks and consequences, as in a college philosophy class, before I decided to take action, would itself have led to a sort of response. A worthless response, but a response nonetheless. This from the father of a philosophy major, BTW.

I seriously doubt that anybody in his/her right mind would have started his/her response to such a situation by using a firearm (although there certainly have existed situations where starting with deadly force is reasonable). A shout might have stopped it. Is there a risk in even shouting at somebody in such a situation? Sure. But I wouldn't have brought just my voice, um, to a brick fight.

There are plenty stories of OC (pepper spray, not the county) failing. But they're stories precisely because they're the exception. I don't know what the actual odds are, but I'm sure that at least 99 times out of 100 it works as advertised. Were it as unreliable as some suggest, then why would virtually every LE agency in the country carry it, and use it regularly?

Is it possible that use of a firearm would be appropriate in this situation, if nothing else works? Yes.

Is it possible that the BG has friends in the crowd? Yes, but highly unlikely. That's one reason why being conscious of your surroundings is critical in any emergency response.

Is there risk in taking action here? Yes, but life is full of risks. I am not a "risk taker," but I am a risk calculator. And one of my basic motivators in life is to help people. I suppose that's why I've worked in all three of the classic emergency services. And as somebody said, it's possible that former/retired LE and military people would answer this differently. I'm a firm believer in taking care of "Number One" first, but that does not freeze me in a state of inaction. And I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of you would fall somewhere in that same continuum.