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11-17-2009, 11:58 PM
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What if they stop the threat?
I am in the process of getting my CCW and I have been going over in my head the things they told us in class and the legal and ethical dilemmas that can ensue from the use of deadly force.
One scenario that I conjured up in my mind is what if I draw my weapon due to a threat (lets say I am being robbed by a guy with a knife) and instantly the bad guy stops and drops the knife and puts his hands up? I mean, I know that I am not going to shoot him now but what do I do now? Should I just back a safe distance and let him go? OR Should I try to hold him at gun point and call police? I know a citizen can make an arrest but is it even legal to hold someone at gun point to do so? Legal or not, what do you think is the right thing, as a CCW holder, to do in this hypothetical scenario? Sorry if this is obvious, already asked and answered or posted in the wrong place. I am one of those FNGs. 
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11-18-2009, 12:28 AM
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Robbery is a felony. You'd be justified using deadly force (pc 197) to stop him since he had the knife. If you don't shoot him after drawing your weapon and he backs down and stands there. Back away, call 911, tell them you have him at gunpoint, and see how quick they get there.
If he runs away, give them a good description. If continues to stand there, tell them to lay on the ground and face away from you. Stand down by his feet, because if you still have your gun out when the LEOs arrive they will tell you to put it down. You don't want to put it down right in front of the bad guy or near his hands. (BTW, you should put it down as soon as you see them coming. Don't make them make you put it down.) EDIT to add: Yes, it is legal to hold him at gunpoint for what he did. Since it was a felony, you wouldn't be making the arrest. A LEO doesn't need to be present or view a felony to arrest someone for it. And most importantly - if he wants to leave, let him. Just get a good description.
__________________
How're we gonna shoot golf without guns? "It's 2am, do you know where your firearms are?" - In honor of Dennis Farina When the Boogeyman goes to bed, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris. "We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions." ~Ronald Reagan If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective. My guns have killed less people than Sen. Kennedy's car. 
Last edited by Spicy McHaggis : 11-18-2009 at 12:30 AM.
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11-18-2009, 11:33 AM
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Keep your eyes on him (or her). It's possible he can draw a gun from his waistband after he drops the knife.
Whatever you do, be careful. If you shoot AFTER he drops the knife, you will be the one in handcuffs.
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11-18-2009, 12:01 PM
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call the cops...
always call the cops... call the cops if the gun comes out... every time... the first one to the cops is the "victim"... victim's want their attacker arrested... Call the COPS...and stay on the line till they get there... holster/secure the gun as the cops come up... comply with any/all instructions given by the cops... Point out the location of the knife to them... tell them the guy attacked you with a knife and you drew your gun to defend yourself and the guy stopped ask for a lawyer... shup up...period...until the lawyer shows up... didn't they cover this in your ccw class?
__________________
"Under the table Greebo sat and washed himself. Occasionally he burped. Vampires have risen from the dead, the grave and the crypt, but have never managed it from the cat." "Greebo turned upon Granny Weatherwax a yellow-eyed stare of self-satisfied malevolence, such as cats always reserve for people who don't like them, and purred. Greebo was possibly the only cat who could snigger in purr" Greebo the Cat - Terry Pratchett "Witches Abroad"
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11-18-2009, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
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11-18-2009, 12:56 PM
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All good points. In my class we were advised to be the first one to call 911 or first to direct someone else to do so.
__________________
US Navy veteran NRA Life member CRPA member American Legion VFW "Among other evils which being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised" Nicolo Machiavelli "politicians occasionally stumble on the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." Winston Churchill
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11-18-2009, 01:46 PM
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[quote=El Gato;166680]call the cops...
always call the cops... call the cops if the gun comes out... every time... the first one to the cops is the "victim"... victim's want their attacker arrested... Call the COPS...and stay on the line till they get there... holster/secure the gun as the cops come up... comply with any/all instructions given by the cops... Point out the location of the knife to them... tell them the guy attacked you with a knife and you drew your gun to defend yourself and the guy stopped ask for a lawyer... shup up...period...until the lawyer shows up... didn't they cover this in your ccw class?[/QUOTE Yes, "Call the cops" was covered in the class. I didn't mean to imply that I was unsure if I should report the incident. I was mainly asking if it is reasonable and legal to continue to use a CCW to detain someone who has eliminated the lethal threat from the picture (thrown down the knife) until the police arrive. I asked because it would seem one could argue, that once my life was no longer in mortal danger my legal reason to use my weapon is gone. I guess maybe a better way to ask is...Should a CCW permit holder faced with this situation. A) Hold the now unarmed robber at gun point and call 911 and hold the robber at gun point until the police arrive. OR B) Look for any safe way to leave the area and then report the attempted robbery and use of the CCW. I realize this is probably subject to opinion and interpretation of the situation. I am just curious how others think they would handle this scenario. Thanks for the replies so far.
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11-18-2009, 03:19 PM
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You cannot leave the scene of a crime especially if you are involved. With that said... if the guy takes off, I don't know if he is going to come back with his buddies or go to his car and grab his AK... I would call the Cops ASAP as I look for a safer place to hide/wait for the Cops and tell the 911 operator where you were (scene of the crime) and where you are relocating to because of safety concerns. Just my 2 cent.... NOT LEGAL advise.
__________________
Apeman ---------------------- Why? Because I can!
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11-18-2009, 03:23 PM
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I agree with Ape.
Definately A. It's a "no brainer". If you run, there is the risk that 1. You may be shot and killed by the police who may think you are the aggresor or 2. You may be killed by the criminal who chases after you. Last edited by brightside : 11-18-2009 at 03:25 PM.
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11-18-2009, 05:17 PM
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[quote=fitzgood;166697]
Quote:
Im leaving as fast as I can and getting to a safe place.
__________________
"P.S. Somebody is going to have to PM me why I have an account here already... Where am I? How did I get here? Im a founding member no less?" "Seriously... I have no idea where I am..... What happened?" "SBIMB" Omnium horarum homo
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11-18-2009, 11:12 PM
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[quote=RomanDad;166728]
Quote:
I understood the question as ... holding the guy at gunpoint...which is not something I particularly want to do off duty...however... if they give up/surrender... then I have a "prisoner" and then we have that whole citizen's arrest rodeo...unless I tell them to leave...which is not a bad idea...which resets me to the call the cops scenario to avoid the dude with the colorless tattoo's callin' johnny law and reporting the fat white guy who pointed his glock at them for no reason... We can surely agree to work on our awareness levels and our evade and escape technique and try avoid having to draw the gun the best we can...until someone demands we point the gun at them/shoot them... which happens unfortunately... but if/when my clients have drawn the gun/shot someone/got them to surrender...they have called the cops/sheriff/whatever ...gave a brief non specific statement and then shut up till the lawyer got there....for the most part anyway... some have said more/some less... we do try to prepare them the best we can in the brief time we have them in class...
__________________
"Under the table Greebo sat and washed himself. Occasionally he burped. Vampires have risen from the dead, the grave and the crypt, but have never managed it from the cat." "Greebo turned upon Granny Weatherwax a yellow-eyed stare of self-satisfied malevolence, such as cats always reserve for people who don't like them, and purred. Greebo was possibly the only cat who could snigger in purr" Greebo the Cat - Terry Pratchett "Witches Abroad"
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11-19-2009, 07:58 AM
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El Gato,
Great advice !! This thread is a good refresher course.
__________________
I choose to be a trained, law abiding, educated citizen and NOT a Victim. NRA Member
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11-24-2009, 04:21 PM
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There is a group of pilots that meets every Saturday at a local airport, at one of the guys hangar. Most of these guys own their own planes, own their own hangars, have been flying for a long time and are involved in the airplane industry in one way or another, from airplane racing to airlines, ex-military, movie industry, etc. In short, these guys breath and sleep aviation.
The airport I am referring to, as most airports these days, is located in an area of town with a lackluster record of civil violations, assaults, robberies, etc. This is a true story, it did not happen to me. I think this guy is a member here, not sure. Or he has told me he has visited these pages. It goes like this. This gentleman was headed home after a day at the airport, after dark, his vehicle was running low on fuel so he stopped at one of the self service gas station to get gas. He says that he stopped his truck, a fairly large one, something like a heavy 350, he hauls airplane engines and stuff with it. Anyway, he stopped his truck by the gas pump, the gas tank intake is on the drivers side behind the cab, and opened the truck door so that it almost hits the pump. So he is now sort of boxed in. He says "I just saw a very fast moving shadow and then there is this guy coming at me , he has a knife, I drew my concealed weapon, (He packs a small frame 45, a Kimber Ultra CDP like model but his is dark blue) and when the guy saw that, he stopped dead on his tracks and turned around and bolted out of there, it happened really fast". After that he re holstered and walked towards the place where the attendant was and she was in a lowered position behind the counter. Apparently she new something was not right Mind you, this guy is not a small framed guy either. Goes to show you that the fertilizer can hit the fan fast. I never go to that airport unless I am packing, no way! Also goes to show you that the mere fact that you are packing might put a stop to these cowards when they see you will defend yourself. They will do it only as long as they have the upper hand. They will hit old people, women, etc. In essence they are cowards. They will pick an easy kill!
__________________
"If you don't shoot, you can't score" "The movement of the prey, stimulates the predator" 'The universe favors the prepared mind"
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11-24-2009, 04:29 PM
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when the guy throws the knife away..... watch some episodes of COPS to see what to say...
something along the lines of "ON THE GROUND.. FACE DOWN ON YOUR STOMACH.... HANDS OUT.... KEEP THEM OUT" and also learn that in spanish. then proceed to call the police. If he runs, do what the others said and DONT RUN AFTER, just give them a good description and whatnot.
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11-24-2009, 07:13 PM
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I guess shooting him before he gets to drop the knife is not the right answer answer?? Kidding.
Remember something (in addition to all of the great advice already given): CYA stands for Can You Articulate. Make sure that you have the ability to articulate your reasons, and for the love of God, as soon as you see the little blinky light come around the corner, holster/drop your weapon. The 911 operator will give you instructions, and the LEOs arriving on scene should be aware that the caller has a gun out and pointed at the subject. SHOULD being the operative word here.
__________________
A properly placed .22 caliber round will kill someone just as dead as a .50 caliber round will. Train or die.
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