Avid Shooter

[K-dog.v3]

Originally Posted by GunSlut

It's actually the other trainers giving out bad information. That's the problem.

So the general policy has never changed ?

[akulahawk]

Originally Posted by K-dog.v3

So the general policy has never changed ?

I believe that is what is being said, in one way or another. In one of my previous occupations, it is simply astounding how powerful the game of telephone is when it comes to dispensing information... You get good, specific info at first... and at the end, it's all completely wrong. Then when you correct the bad info, some folks just can't let go of demonstratably bad/wrong information... they in effect, refuse to learn!

[CCWInstructor]

None of my renewals or first time applicants have been rejected because they are carefully articulating their good causes. Refining students good causes are helping in the approval rate.

The short answer to your question. No policy HAS NOT Changed. I just had a conversation 30 minutes ago that confirmed this.

[akulahawk]

Thank you CCWI for confirming what I suspected about the policy.

[X-ffdo]

Originally Posted by GunSlut

It's actually the other trainers giving out bad information. That's the problem.

In my opinion, you are responsible only for the people under your care. Sorry, the other people are "Acceptable losses", You simply can not cover everybody!

[hygyliac]

Originally Posted by X-ffdo

In my opinion, you are responsible only for the people under your care. Sorry, the other people are "Acceptable losses", You simply can not cover everybody!

I can understand this sentiment, his priorities should be his people first. And so far his/their (sucking up again to F.I. again, sorry can't help it ) students are walking out of PSD with their permits in hand. After that you save who you can, if you can (NOT when you can). You can't help all of them (and thats the truth ) People will remember the effort. When the final call is made nobody can say that you didn't try.

[X-ffdo]

Originally Posted by hygyliac

I can understand this sentiment, his priorities should be his people first. And so far his/their (sucking up again to F.I. again, sorry can't help it ) students are walking out of PSD with their permits in hand. After that you save who you can, if you can (NOT when you can). You can't help all of them (and thats the truth ) People will remember the effort. When the final call is made nobody can say that you didn't try.

I would qualify that as an inspired statement....Well done!!!!

[GunSlut]

I just finished Brunch with one of the people having a problem with his good cause from the instructor in question.

To say that OCSD policy is being broken and the spirit of the law is being violated, that is way to polite. SCAM is a better word.

Here are the details.

A shooter goes into to Turners the buy a gun. The salesman says "do you have a CCW" customer says "No" Salesman says "Well if you take this class you WILL get one here in OC" customer says "I thought they were hard to get" salesman says "not with our instructor telling you how to write your good cause" The customer signs up. I explain to the poor guy, the salesman just made a commission on up selling him the class. The customer had no idea that the salesman makes money on selling the class. He now understands that profit is the motive, a little late.

At this point we have somebody taking the class before being approved. This is in direct violation of OCSD policy and procedures. As you all know the OCSD policy states you take the training after being approved. The instructor also tell the whole class to use "Avid Shooter" and how to write it. This voilates the spirit of P.C. 12050. Each GC is personal.

The guy takes the class, FORTY people are in the class, only THREE have been approved for further processing. The rest including this guy haven't even filled out the application! Most pay 20.00 extra for a second gun added to the permit, some go for a third gun, more money again. The instructor also tries to sell hard the Utah and Florida ccw classes. 70.00 each. At this point I'm laughing, I explain to him that CCWI doesn't charge extra for a 2nd and 3rd gun, and Florida and Utah are included in CCWI's price. They guy gets real pissed. He realizes he just paid 200.00 more for something that is free from Greg.

He fills out his application, gathers all his documentation and does his interview. He is told by OCSD in his interview that this is not a valid good cause. They ask if he has any other reason, his answer is "NO".

He goes back to Turners, they assure him that he did something wrong, it's his fault. He has called the instructor several times, no return call. He then finally does a search on the Internet and runs across this thread. He PM's me and CCWI. CCWI tells him to contact the firm he paid his money too. He wants to meet with me to see what his options are. I pretty much tell him the same thing CCWI said.

At this point Turners had made their money, the instructor has made his money. This student of theirs is pissed at the sheriff and OCSD. I explained to him that OCSD is not at fault. His reply is the Sheriff Department is allowing this "approved vendor" to run this scam. I told him to contact PSD.

[Harry Carry]

It bears repeating: Your good cause is YOUR good cause.

Some people have wondered why we don't allow sharing of good cause information so that others can see what works. This is why.

[akulahawk]

GS: That is just so wrong... I'm not surprised that guy is just a tad upset. I guess you could now say that it "saves" to shop around!!!!

[Rob P.]

IF what Gunslut says is true, one of the "students" needs to complain to the SO or DA about fraud issues. A simple undercover investigation into the "guarantee" part will prove the fraud and the operation could be shut down. It's a scam being run on the unsuspecting public.

[Spicy McHaggis]

I would even recommend that anyone who has taken the class and feels that they have been cheated to contact not only the PSD, but the Better Business Bureau and even the Federal Trade Commission. The BBB is only a reporting agency, but the FTC investigates consumer fraud and false advertising and can actually bring charges against those businesses.

[X-ffdo]

Well, folks....What do you expect from a place like Turner's ( Yes turner's, gun sight "ON", Safety "Off".....I am at your six, and closing!....)
You should have seen the shenanigans we went through when "No drama", another board member, sold me a weapon and we went there to do a PPT, we ended up going somewhere else. Unbelievable story....What a crock!. We were laughing!. I have lost all respect for this outfit!
This episode comes as no surprise! Pay attention!

[tango-52]

According to the CA Department of Consumer Affairs web site, there is a state licensing agency for firearms instructors, the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services (BSIS). In my dealings with the Board for Geology (also under the DCA), they are eager to discipline licensees, as it shows that there is a reason for their agency to even exist. I would recommend that people who have been the victims of such poor training and fraudulent actions file complaints with the BSIS.
Here is a link to the BSIS's site where you can verify the instructor has a license:
License Holders :
Here is a link to the agency itself:
California Bureau of Security and Investigative Services (BSIS)
And here is a link to the complaint site:
How to File a Complaint - California Department of Consumer Affairs

I have not reviewed the specific laws and Code of Professional Standards that apply to Firearms Instructors. I do know that other professions have very specific prohibitions regarding giving kickbacks for referrals and for performing substandard work.
I am sure that receiving a number of detailed complaints will get the attention of the agency. They will then do their own investigation and take appropriate disciplinary action.

As a side note, I have seen the same ads in the Turner's store in Kearney Mesa (San Diego). I have serious doubts that anyone that took that class got a CCW from our Sheriff.

[CCWInstructor]

Originally Posted by tango-52

According to the CA Department of Consumer Affairs web site, there is a state licensing agency for firearms instructors, the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services (BSIS). .

That licensing is to train security guards only