"Nightstand" Set Up (and too close for comfort)

[hbliam]

Originally Posted by rycerz

Umm how bout it's a sure way to give away your position? You might scare some, but you might tell others where to come and get you.

This can by hypothetic'd to death. Bottom line is that on more then one occasion I have seen the positive result of racking the slide for all to hear.

[PHM]

Originally Posted by hbliam

Notice I said "one" of the reasons.

Your being argumentative now!

Notice I said "another" reason, not discounting your reason.

[Bombard]

Originally Posted by hbliam

Your being argumentative now.

And yes there is a written policy that states the shotgun is secured without a round in the chamber.

I'm really not trying to be either funny or argumentative, I'm just curious -

Is there a policy about when a round can be chambered? Or is it just whenever you have a reason to remove it from the rack, you automatically have a reason to chamber?

[SierraNevadaCCW]

It's a well known fact in the law enforcement community, that racking a shotgun is an intense psychological and effective method of obtaining instant cooperation and surrender in most cases. You are out-gunned with a handgun, if confronted by a shotgun...even in numbers. And most know that.

Shotguns are never kept with a shell in the tube...in LE.

[hbliam]

Originally Posted by Bombard

I'm really not trying to be either funny or argumentative, I'm just curious -

Is there a policy about when a round can be chambered? Or is it just whenever you have a reason to remove it from the rack, you automatically have a reason to chamber?

The policy only concerns the storage of the shotgun. After that the shooting policy would be the policy of concern.

[hbliam]

Originally Posted by PHM

Your being argumentative now!

Notice I said "another" reason, not discounting your reason.

No, argumentative is being sarcastic and then making a stupid joke about someone crapping their pants after it's pointed out that your response was off base.

I was just agreeing with you in the sense that there is more then one reason.

[K-dog.v3]

Originally Posted by hbliam

No, argumentative is being sarcastic and then making a stupid joke about someone crapping their pants after it's pointed out that your response was off base.

I guess that comment is for me.. I am sure there is a written policy concerning keeping a shotgun Cruiser Ready. I guess I was looking for written policy pertaining to when a rack can or can not be used to de-escalate a situation. Or where it falls into the use of force continuum.

As for the "bowels" comment. you must not be aware of internet folklore regarding the shotgun.

[Rodsteal]

Originally Posted by PHM

Double 00 buck or #4 buck is the way to go for home defense, slugs are overkill. Racking the slide on a shotgun usually does the trick to fend of any intruder.

Read the post after mine, the one you are quoting by Bombard.

[Rodsteal]

Originally Posted by libertarian

Nothing says "Get the hell out" better than the sound of a shotgun being racked.

Like I told my girlfriend when she got her HD shotgun - "If racking the shotgun doesn't make them leave, you're going to have to use it."

Slugs? You can't be serious. Those things will go right through your neighbor's house. Stick to #00 or #1 buck for best results. Save the slugs for wild boar.

It is a Benelli M-1 (semi-auto), there is no "raking" involved. Instead of scaring the guys off that are trying to kill my family and having them talk about what a close call that was, the ones that survive could tell there friends that they have decided to have a career change.

[Bombard]

Originally Posted by Rodsteal

Read the post after mine, the one you are quoting by Bombard.

I'm not sure which post you are asking PHM to read.

I haven't offered an opinion on the psychological effect (or lack of effect) of cycling a pump shotgun.

I believe that shotgun slugs are an inappropriate round for the overwhelming majority of home defense situations, since they penetrate construction material as well as a ball rifle round. I believe that buckshot is more appropriate since it is available and well accepted as a self defense round.

It's kind of like the logic of selecting handgun SD ammunition. You can carry what your local PD carries, or you can use something odd - like a hot handload with bullets you've drilled into hollowpoints on a lathe. With the factory loads it's one less thing to explain in court. I can't think of a reason to go with slugs over buckshot, unless you think the intruder will be wearing Kevlar.

If you want to reference a specific post, you can use the permalink, like this

http://www.calccw.com/Forums/experie...html#post46067

To quote the conclusions of the Box o' Truth -

Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing.

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

[PHM]

Originally Posted by Bombard

I'm not sure which post you are asking PHM to read.

I haven't offered an opinion on the psychological effect (or lack of effect) of cycling a pump shotgun.

I believe that shotgun slugs are an inappropriate round for the overwhelming majority of home defense situations, since they penetrate construction material as well as a ball rifle round. I believe that buckshot is more appropriate since it is available and well accepted as a self defense round.

It's kind of like the logic of selecting handgun SD ammunition. You can carry what your local PD carries, or you can use something odd - like a hot handload with bullets you've drilled into hollowpoints on a lathe. With the factory loads it's one less thing to explain in court. I can't think of a reason to go with slugs over buckshot, unless you think the intruder will be wearing Kevlar.

If you want to reference a specific post, you can use the permalink, like this

http://www.calccw.com/Forums/experie...html#post46067

To quote the conclusions of the Box o' Truth -

I'm sure anyone with any firearms experience knows that buck shot does not have the penetrating power of a handgun round such as a 9mm, 45acp, .40cal, but remember with buck shot you are hitting with multiple projectiles and penetration is not the only factor when deciding a round for defense. A 45acp does not have the penetrating power of a 9mm, but most would agree that 45acp is a much more effective round for stopping an aggressor, a good analogy would be throwing a rock at someone vs a brick; you can throw the rock much faster but the brick will do a better job of stopping. In the end you should use what you feel most comfortable and proficient with, but slugs in a shotgun are overkill and I would not use them in home defense ever, I would stick to 00 Buck.

[Bombard]

Originally Posted by PHM

I'm sure anyone with any firearms experience knows that buck shot does not have the penetrating power of a handgun round such as a 9mm, 45acp, .40cal, but remember with buck shot you are hitting with multiple projectiles and penetration is not the only factor when deciding a round for defense. A 45acp does not have the penetrating power of a 9mm, but most would agree that 45acp is a much more effective round for stopping an aggressor, a good analogy would be throwing a rock at someone vs a brick; you can throw the rock much faster but the brick will do a better job of stopping. In the end you should use what you feel most comfortable and proficient with, but slugs in a shotgun are overkill and I would not use them in home defense ever, I would stick to 00 Buck.

I believe we are in violent agreement.

Given the choice I would rather hit an intruder with a '00 Buick than 00 Buck.

[Spicy McHaggis]

Originally Posted by rycerz

Umm how bout it's a sure way to give away your position? You might scare some, but you might tell others where to come and get you.

In all probability, if an LEO is responding to something where they will need their shotgun, stealth is not really a factor.

[Greg-Dawg®]

No kids yet, just a hot wife.

My Glock is only less than a foot from me.

I sleep peacefully.

[PHM]

Originally Posted by Bombard

I believe we are in violent agreement.

Given the choice I would rather hit an intruder with a '00 Buick than 00 Buck.

I think a 00 Buick would work too.