To tell or not to tell ?

[Poogsdad]

"To tell or not to tell".

Regardless of what county you have been issued a CCW from and your specific issuing authority's requirements for notification, in my opinion, this falls more under the category of "Officer Safety" than CCW.

There are generally very good reasons why LEOs request or expect certain types of behaviors from citizens when they make an approach, whether it be formal or casual.

• Requesting that you take your hands out of your pockets.
• Asking a citizen put his/her cup/bottle/glass down during a contact.
• Placing handcuffs on a subject who is not "Under Arrest" but who's status is yet to be determined.
• Separating the protagonists in a domestic dispute in such a manner that the officers can see all protagonists but they cannot see each other.
• Not allowing a protagonist in go into another room unless a clear need to do so has been established and only with a LEO escort.
• Requesting that a subject step back to increase the distance between them.
• Requesting that a subject leave a purse or bag on a table in view of both officers and subject and not permitting access unless a clear need to do so has been established.
• Politely informing a LEO during a contact that you are CCW and stating where you are carrying.

There are many other examples that probably come to mind for both LEOs and non-LEOS that I have not mentioned.

Bottom line: Officer safety is an issue that LEOs take very seriously. Most, if not all, of the examples I used above came about because of an injury or fatality sustained by an officer during a contact with a citizen/subject.

Not every LEO does or requires these things, however, if they do, they have a good reason to do so.

Please realize it is not personal, they just want to go home EOS to their families just like you do when you leave work.

Thanks,

[hbliam]

Originally Posted by Bombard

If your goal is to make the officer feel safe, what is the best way to physically present yourself if stopped while walking?

Suppose you're out walking in a residential area at night. You're not doing anything illegal, you're not carrying, but for some reason a patrol officer thinks you look wrong. He lights you up with the spotlight.

What's the best thing to do to appear non threatening and cooperative? I wouldn't walk over to his window unless he asks me to. Stand still and wait for him to say something? I would keep my hands visible - but does that mean loose at my sides or with my fingers interlaced in front of me?

It kind of depends on the context.

If it's, "Sir, can I talk to you for a minute?", I would stop, hold hands up in front of your chest with fingers spread. Officer will either tell you to chill or instruct you further. Then wait for him to get out of the car or call you over. (If you want to talk to him)

If it's, "Sir, stop right there!", I would stop and raise my hands over my head, then await further instructions.

And you are right. Never walk up on an Officer sitting in his unit unless he calls you over. If you need to talk to one sitting in a vehicle, make yourself known long before you get close to him/her.

[Bombard]

Originally Posted by hbliam

It kind of depends on the context.

If it's, "Sir, can I talk to you for a minute?", I would stop, hold hands up in front of your chest with fingers spread. Officer will either tell you to chill or instruct you further. Then wait for him to get out of the car or call you over. (If you want to talk to him)

If it's, "Sir, stop right there!", I would stop and raise my hands over my head, then await further instructions.

And you are right. Never walk up on an Officer sitting in his unit unless he calls you over. If you need to talk to one sitting in a vehicle, make yourself known long before you get close to him/her.

The example I gave was true. I was in college, 9 pm, walking with a friend talking about a business plan. A NBPD car cruised up beside us and hit us with his spotlight. We stopped, he stopped. It was winter and we were wearing coats.

We stood there, feeling stupid, for about a minute, the officer did and said nothing. Finally I told my friend not to move, put my hands in front of my chest with my fingers making "here's the church, here's the steeple" and SLOWLY walked across in front of his car and around to his side of the car. He left the spotlight on my friend. I stopped and waited about 20 more seconds then said loudly - because his window was rolled up - "CAN I HELP YOU?"

After a while he rolled his window down, wanted to know who we were, what we were doing out at night, what our addresses were, see our id, etc. He never told us what he thought we were doing, and we could have been non-cooperative, but we had nothing to hide and just thought he was being strange. Finally he told us to move along, as if we were loitering at a mall.

If he'd said ANYTHING when he lit us up, it would have been a lot less confusing. We wanted to cooperate, we just weren't sure how.

[MadMex]

The use of the word “mused” was intended in its literal sense and not in a disrespectful manner to OC CCW brethren. My parents still live in HB. I visit them at least twice a year. Knowing your local CCW “conditions”, the situation made me ponder my obligations / LEO expectations while traveling through OC.

As hbliam notes, the key word is context. In my encounters at the BLM location, some sheriffs pass through, some sit in their ride to chat, others hop out and B.S. for a bit. Read and be read. Sometimes you connect, sometimes you don’t. The last thing I’m going to do is reach for my wallet so I can pull out my “laminated” (oh crap, a whole new thread to contend with!) rice paper. I’m very conscientious about not coming across as any sort of threat, and am not really interested in verbally affronting anyone with the fact that I carry.

[NSP]

During my interview I got to ask some questions, the question at the forefront of my mind was "what do you guys define as "official contact?""

He said that anytime an officer is talking to me. An officer striking up a conversation with you in a burgerking line probably has some reason to do so. He may be seeing what he thinks is an imprint so he's giving you an attitude check, which means it is then time to politely say that you have a CCW and are practicing your right currently. If he wishes to further the convo outside at that point it is up to the officer.

I fully understand an officer's need to want to go home safely, for me to take a minute out of my day to communicate and maybe take a piece of paper out of my wallet is the least I can do.

[hbliam]

Originally Posted by NSP

During my interview I got to ask some questions, the question at the forefront of my mind was "what do you guys define as "official contact?""

He said that anytime an officer is talking to me. An officer striking up a conversation with you in a burgerking line probably has some reason to do so. He may be seeing what he thinks is an imprint so he's giving you an attitude check, which means it is then time to politely say that you have a CCW and are practicing your right currently. If he wishes to further the convo outside at that point it is up to the officer.

I fully understand an officer's need to want to go home safely, for me to take a minute out of my day to communicate and maybe take a piece of paper out of my wallet is the least I can do.

I hope that's one cops opinion and not the OCSD policy. I can see a defense lawyer taking a comment like that and turning every consensual encounter into an "official contact".

[THE Gimper]

Originally Posted by hbliam

I hope that's one cops opinion and not the OCSD policy. I can see a defense lawyer taking a comment like that and turning every consensual encounter into an "official contact".

I don't think that applies to OCSD. He's up in Gold Country, not OC.

[EM2]

Here in Fresno County, notification is strictly voluntary.
In fact our instructor advised us to be careful if in a CCW unfriendly county such as SF. There are a great many LEOs who have never seen a CCW and in some places do not know they are legal.
Now that being said, I do appreciate all of the advice and situational descriptions, and will take these in consideration if I should have any LEO contact.
I do believe however that it should not be mandatory and that each individual should have the descretion to notify or not.
I am still unsure how notification goes toward officer safety??? If I am stopped by an officer and have my firearm with me I am no more a theat to his safety than without my firearm. I could understand the argument for notification for the safety of the CCW holder perhaps.

[DVSmith]

Originally Posted by EM2

Here in Fresno County, notification is strictly voluntary.
In fact our instructor advised us to be careful if in a CCW unfriendly county such as SF. There are a great many LEOs who have never seen a CCW and in some places do not know they are legal.
Now that being said, I do appreciate all of the advice and situational descriptions, and will take these in consideration if I should have any LEO contact.
I do believe however that it should not be mandatory and that each individual should have the discretion to notify or not.
I am still unsure how notification goes toward officer safety??? If I am stopped by an officer and have my firearm with me I am no more a threat to his safety than without my firearm. I could understand the argument for notification for the safety of the CCW holder perhaps.

I don't believe that the policy of wanting to be notified is for their safety directly, you are right about your proclivity to attack a police officer.

The concern seems (and quite rationally so to me) that the officer could detect the presence of a weapon and act accordingly to increase his/her safety margin thereby putting someone (most likely you) in a riskier situation than necessary. This is true whether you are pulled over as a bank robbery suspect or standing in line at Burger King.

As stated earlier, it is not a general expectation of an officer to run into an armed citizen. When they do they have to determine what your intent is and if that puts them or the general public at risk. By identifying your status as a CCW holder you can help alleviate that concern. Unless your actions or demeanor would indicate otherwise.

All that being said, it seems obvious that if you want to keep your permit you would adhere as strictly as possible to the conditions of your permit.

[Spicy McHaggis]

Originally Posted by NSP

During my interview I got to ask some questions, the question at the forefront of my mind was "what do you guys define as "official contact?""

He said that anytime an officer is talking to me. An officer striking up a conversation with you in a burgerking line probably has some reason to do so. He may be seeing what he thinks is an imprint so he's giving you an attitude check, which means it is then time to politely say that you have a CCW and are practicing your right currently. If he wishes to further the convo outside at that point it is up to the officer.

I fully understand an officer's need to want to go home safely, for me to take a minute out of my day to communicate and maybe take a piece of paper out of my wallet is the least I can do.

The policy in OC isn't defined by "official contact"; it simply states "any contact".

[NSP]

Originally Posted by hbliam

I hope that's one cops opinion and not the OCSD policy. I can see a defense lawyer taking a comment like that and turning every consensual encounter into an "official contact".

NCSD told me that, however he also told me that I should not be in line at a fast food restraunt if I was carrying. So I'd presume that he sides with caution.

[G30 Steve]

Originally Posted by EM2

I am still unsure how notification goes toward officer safety??? If I am stopped by an officer and have my firearm with me I am no more a theat to his safety than without my firearm. I could understand the argument for notification for the safety of the CCW holder perhaps.

Yes, I agree it's safer for the CCW holder too. Here's why:
During a contact (aka Terry stop), if an officer spots your weapon before you advise him you are in legal possession of it, for his safety he will assume you are an armed suspect. He may feel very unsafe during the brief time it takes for him to take appropriate action to counter the immediate (perceived) threat you pose. During this time you may encounter some very real and unpleasant consequences that could easily be avoided by being upfront and showing concern for his (Officer) safety.

[Bombard]

As we think about these hypothetical examples, it might make a difference if we substitute "bank" for "fast food place."

Both situations are possible, but there's a very different environment.

[emc002]

When I'm in my own county, most SOs know that I carry and I always inform any new rookies I meet (we're always getting lots of rookies, they're here for about 4 months to 2 years then go to the bay area for $$).
It's not required in Amador County, but I do it anyway.

Now, just this weekend I was in SF. I can't say for sure what I would have done since the situation didn't arise where I had official contact with SFPD. It probably would have depended on the nature of the official contact, however:
1) There is no requirement placed on me by my permit to do so.
2) The numerous posts (here and elsewhere) about SFPD saying CCWs from other counties aren't legit in SF.

If I was in OC, I would disclose given the climate and knowledge base of the OC LEOs, but probably not Oakland.
This is not to say I respect or like other jurisdictions LEOs more, simply that the SFPD management/politicians engages in a campaign of misinformation that the beat cops would not necessarily know was not true. Not their fault, but if they believed the FUD spread by the bosses, I could end up spending the night in the pokey, losing my weapon for a protracted amount of time and end up in a protracted and costly legal battle.

As an aside, I did take a little pleasure in knowing that I was probably one of only a dozen or so people in SF legally carrying concealed.

[Tough Guy Levi]

Howdy All:

Saturday I attended an Armenian chuch fair in Montebello, CA (SoCA) while wearing my Tommy's Guns fanny pack adorned with a Harley-Davidson patch. I rode my Harley to the event with a friend. The food, music and all were very pleasant as was the weather. There were armed security guards but no secuity inspection 'stations'. None of the armed security types walking around gave my fanny pack a second glance. I was also wearing a HD T-Shirt.

Sunday in Irvine, CA I attended an Israel Expo at the Samueli Jewish Campus riding my Harley to the event for parking ease plus again the weather was very appropriate for my 'means' of transportation. Again wearing my 'Harley-Davidson' fanny pack, I noticed a security station with two armed security types plus Irvine LEO's a few feet removed behind the security station. I witnessed all packages, purses and etc being examined thus prior to me going through the security station, I removed my CA Drivers License and CA CCW (Carry Concealed Weapon) permit issued by the Orange County Sheriff Department from my wallet to have them available. After waiting my turn in line I handed both 'documents' to one of the security types (both armed). He nodded his head and waved me past him wtihout examining my fanny pack. I didn't get very far because an Irvine LEO who was observing those in line, asked me to show him what I shown to the security type. I hadn't had a chance to put my CA Drivers License and CCW permit away in my wallet thus handed these to the Irvine LEO. He gave them back to me and said the campus was privately owned and if the owners didn't want me to be CCW armed, I would have to remove what I was carrying and place it in one of my Harley saddlebags. I then asked why he stopped me and he said since all packages etc were being examined, he was curious why security didn't check my 'Harley' fanny pack! Note, I was waiting in line with lots of people in front and to the rear of me.

After the Irvine LEO encounter, I walked down many stairs to the event, purchased an event ticket and you guessed it, there's another security station. Hmm, Monday night quarterbacking, I now knew why the Irvine LEO informed me about the campus being privately owned CCW etc! Only this station isn't manned by the security types nor Irvine LEO I encountered in the campus parking lot entrance. These types aren't checking bags or anything. Both are wearing dark sun glasses, tactical pants/t-shirts, armed and scanning those handing entrance tickets to attendants. I get within 5' of one of them (for your info- I'm wearing a T-Shirt with a Star of David plus lettering - MY HOG IS KOSHER) and one 'scanner' with foreign accent (take a guess where he was from!) asks me what's in the fanny pack? Before I retrieve my wallet in the 11:30 position in my waist-band, I inform him I have documents I need to show him prior to me telling him what's in my fanny pack besides my camera/cell phone. With my left hand I retrieved my wallet and using both hands extract my previously described documents and hand them to him. Both of then look at my documents, one hands them back to me and says "don't display IT unless you have to", smiles and waves me through his side of his security station.

Later, an Irvine LEO motor officer whom I've met while training at Raahauge Shooting Enterprises in Norco, CA stops to inquire where I purchased my T-shirt (Star of Davidson) and then said, "haven't we met"? Yes, I informed him at Raahauges in Norco. We chatted about my T-shirt, training, Cowboy Action Shooting and naturally, weapons. Irvine PD just issued Sig P220s to their motor officers because their previous carry (didn't ask make) slides were rusting. If I am not mistaken, the Sig P220 stainless steel slides are coated! He hadn't even practiced with it yet! He asked me if I was carrying and I told him yes and he gave me this - you've got to be kidding look! I just shrugged my shoulders, said my goodbyes and when I turned around, I nearly got knocked over by a Camel's rear end (honest- I wasn't drinking or smoking)! One of the Expos attractions was a Camel ride and there were many lined up for that experience. HEADLINES - CCW Permit Holder Run over by Camel during Israel Expo in Irvine CA!! ONLY KIDDING!!

Great weekend! Food, music, entertainment, weather and security/LEO encounters!

Tough Guy Levi
SASS# 61430L
NRA Cert. Pistol Instructor
NRA Life Member (1967)