Lessons to be learned for CCW people.

[CCWInstructor]

Gun-toting off-duty cops taking more shots at crime
By Troy Anderson, Staff Writer
Article Last Updated: 11/03/2007 12:11:05 AM PDT

Last year, an off-duty Los Angeles cop was at the Pavilions market in Sherman Oaks when Jonathan F. Reyes walked in and pointed a gun at a clerk.

Reyes took cash from one clerk and then moved to another. But that's when the officer - armed with a concealed gun - shot Reyes.

Reyes, 24, of North Hollywood pleaded no contest last month to two counts of second-degree robbery and was sentenced to 14 years in state prison, District Attorney's Office spokeswoman Sandi Gibbons said.

While the case highlights how off-duty officers carrying weapons can help thwart crimes, it also is one of a growing number of off-duty shootings involving the Los Angeles Police Department and the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

Since 2000, LAPD officers have been involved in 68 off-duty shootings. Last year alone, there were 14 off-duty shootings - up from just six the previous year. Nine of the cases involved injuries.

In the same period, sheriff's officers have been involved in 41 off-duty shootings. Last year, there were seven - up from just four the previous year. Two of the cases involved injuries.

The increase comes as law enforcement officers nationwide have come under increased scrutiny for off-duty shootings and officials try to determine whether it reflects a larger trend.

"We're not sure what the increase is due to," LAPD Officer April Harding said. "It's possibly related to the fact there is more violence out there and
more robbery incidences.

"There are more crimes in which officers have to utilize their guns."

Sheriff's spokesman Steve Whitmore said the number of off-duty shootings has fluctuated in recent years, with the department recording eight in 2001.

"Obviously, the Sheriff's Department takes these cases very seriously, and there is always a shooting review," Whitmore said. "These shootings are looked at from top to bottom.

"But it's not a spike. And don't forget that the sheriff's policy says if you have your badge, you can have your gun."

Most of the recent shootings have been similar to the Pavilions incident, with armed off-duty officers foiling everything from car burglaries and bank robberies to drive-by shootings.

But in the past decade, several off-duty shootings - including ones involving intoxicated officers - have resulted in discipline and legal payouts.

Last year, the city of Los Angeles paid $1.4million to the son of a Woodland Hills man, Christopher Oliver, who was shot and killed by off-duty LAPD Sgt. Steven Ulrich, according to court records.

The incident occurred in July 2000 when Oliver drove into several parked vehicles near his home, Woodland Hills attorney Larry Grassini wrote in court records.

Ulrich, a neighbor, called 911 and then ran to the scene, Grassini wrote. According to a 911 tape, Ulrich shot through the front windshield six times, missing Oliver, Grassini wrote.

He then went to the passenger side and fired three more rounds through the window, killing Oliver, Grassini wrote.

Before settling the case, city representatives argued that Oliver tried to flee the scene and attempted to evade arrest by putting his vehicle in reverse.

But Grassini said the car was inoperable and Oliver was trapped inside. Ulrich was not disciplined, Grassini said.

Today, Grassini said officers need better training in the use of off-duty weapons.

"The policy should be that you don't take your gun out unless it's a very, very unusual circumstance and you are actually protecting yourself and others," Grassini said.

LAPD and Sheriff's Department officers are allowed to carry weapons off duty, but are required to undergo periodic weapons-training courses.

Police officers are expected to follow the same policies and procedures off duty as they do while on duty.

"A crime can occur anywhere, anytime and anyplace," LAPD Lt. Roger Mora said. "And we know that when crimes occur, suspects are often armed with knives and other deadly weapons."

Michael Gennaco, chief attorney of the Office of Independent Review that oversees internal investigations at the Sheriff's Department and makes disciplinary recommendations, said a "significant proportion" of officers carry concealed guns at least for some portion of their off-duty hours.

Special Counsel Merrick Bobb, who provides semiannual reports to the county Board of Supervisors about the Sheriff's Department, said it is fine for officers to carry concealed weapons off duty as long as they are capable of fully performing their duties.

"My concerns relate to situations where officers are inebriated and have their guns," Bobb said. "If they are inebriated, or even had a bit too much to drink, those are the situations where having a gun is dangerous and the risks outweigh the benefits."

In 1996, a federal jury awarded $750,000 to the family of a Rowland Heights man who was killed by an intoxicated, off-duty sheriff's deputy.

In Bobb's 1997 report, he analyzed 28 off-duty shootings from 1993 to 1996 and found that six involved deputies who had been drinking.

But Whitmore and Bobb said they are unaware of any similar cases in recent years.

The first shooting by an off-duty sheriff's deputy last year involved an intruder who broke into the deputy's home in October and threatened him.

The deputy pulled his gun and shot twice, hitting the suspect once. The suspect fled to a nearby hospital where he was arrested, Whitmore said.

In December, an off-duty deputy was in his front yard in Van Nuys with some friends when gang members drove up, asked him where he was from and started shooting after the deputy said he was a law enforcement officer, officials said.

The deputy returned fire, injuring one of the gang members.

Both cases are under administrative review, Whitmore said.

The LAPD cases last year were similar, mostly involving off-duty officers who used their guns to defend themselves or the public.

In one case in May, off-duty LAPD Detective Won Chu foiled a car burglar after he fired a warning shot when the man tried to enter his car while he was parked in front of his West Covina home, police said.

[DParker]

Would seem to me that off-duty LEOs should not be allowed to drink when armed, just like us CCWs.

Are there laws/policies about drinking while armed when off-duty?

[SierraNevadaCCW]

Originally Posted by DParker

Would seem to me that off-duty LEOs should not be allowed to drink when armed, just like us CCWs.

Are there laws/policies about drinking while armed when off-duty?

I never saw one. ...but I did see alot of drinking off duty while armed. Not by me of course.

[RAD-G27]

I'm not sure about the last one "In one case in May, off-duty LAPD Detective Won Chu foiled a car burglar after he fired a warning shot when the man tried to enter his car while he was parked in front of his West Covina home, police said." I did not think that a warning shot was allowed, if you need to shoot, it should be pointed at someone???

[SierraNevadaCCW]

Originally Posted by RAD-G27

I'm not sure about the last one "In one case in May, off-duty LAPD Detective Won Chu foiled a car burglar after he fired a warning shot when the man tried to enter his car while he was parked in front of his West Covina home, police said." I did not think that a warning shot was allowed, if you need to shoot, it should be pointed at someone???

This could be a thread on it's own.

There are different schools of thought on this. Some believe if it will avoid someone dying, it's worth a shot (pun may be intended).

Others think it's not a good idea.

My firearm instructors at the LA Sheriff's Dept. said NO warning shots...ever. What if your weapon jams or you hit an innocent person with a stray...etc.
When I was up in Kern... I just qualified at their range, never got any firearms training there...just DT and classroom on other stuff.

Another firearm instructor of mine who was a Reno PD veteren, range master, etc.... he told me that if shooting a round into a flower pot would stop an approaching bad guy(s) who had no visible weapon...it was worth doing.

Personally... in one experience in 1991 (as an off duty cop) I held 10+ individuals at gun point who were all armed with baseball bats in a dark parking lot after midnight when I pulled in after a 12 hour shift at work. I saw them in a crowd nearby and it looked like a bunch of guys in a talk circle drinking beer. I didn't see any bats. As soon as I shut off my engine...they charged me with the bats out. I was able to stop them in their tracks with my gun and voice. It took yelling "drop the F***ng bats! Police! Put your hands up!" about 5-6 times at the top of my lungs for them to slowly comply...with one taking off his gloves and maybe half of them putting their hands up.

It was really a difficult situation for me...I almost shot at them. My finger was squeezing the trigger as they came at me...and my mind was going back and forth on whether to shoot or not shoot. Warning shot? Nowhere to do that... it was an apartment complex and we were surounded by apts. and houses 360. By the time I was out of my truck and they stopped...they were 5-6 feet from me. If I fired, there was no backstop...except occupied apartments. There were no cell phones in those days, so I was alone... I had to survive with my wits, my voice and my gun...all by myself...and could only shoot with bad results no matter what. I was lucky I didn't have to shoot.

Sometimes there is no time to think...things happen fast and yelling won't work.

I know a bounty hunter ccw...who shot at a tire of a car coming at him and stopped just short of shooting into the car when he saw kids strapped in the backseat. Was that smart to shoot that "warning shot" at the tire? The car was coming at him and he didn't know there were kids. Yes? No? He could have been run over...he could have killed a kid...it was a bad situation all the way around.

It's a very difficult question and alot of opinions on it out there...

[hbliam]

Warning shots are against policy at the two local PD's I have worked for. So is shooting at car tires.

[NikNak]

Hitting a tire of a car coming at you ....? Kinda tough. If you are standing and can see the tire, then I am sure the lawyers will have a field day with you saying that there was no longer a threat, as you were not in a direct line with the vehicle, ... unless it was a monster truck and the tires were exposed, or you were on the ground in a prone/supine position, then you probably couldn't see the driver ... good luck on getting out of that one ... I hate it when i have to think like a lawyer.
Just my $.02 worth

[SierraNevadaCCW]

Originally Posted by NikNak

Hitting a tire of a car coming at you ....? Kinda tough. If you are standing and can see the tire, then I am sure the lawyers will have a field day with you saying that there was no longer a threat, as you were not in a direct line with the vehicle, ... unless it was a monster truck and the tires were exposed, or you were on the ground in a prone/supine position, then you probably couldn't see the driver ... good luck on getting out of that one ... I hate it when i have to think like a lawyer.
Just my $.02 worth

Yea...it's definately idiotic.

[NSP]

As I have learned through life and news stories:

Warning shots and wounding shots are a no-no. The only time a civilian may discharge a firearm when not at the shooting range is with intent to kill to protect the individual's life.

Only recently at the CCW class did I learn that you may discharge a firearm to protect someone else's life and still that is a thick soupy gray area...

[hbliam]

Originally Posted by NSP

As I have learned through life and news stories:

Warning shots and wounding shots are a no-no. The only time a civilian may discharge a firearm when not at the shooting range is with intent to kill to protect the individual's life.

Only recently at the CCW class did I learn that you may discharge a firearm to protect someone else's life and still that is a thick soupy gray area...

You shoot with the intent to STOP the threat. That doesn't mean the threat will die. It may, it may not.

[X-ffdo]

"No Warning Shots".........

[Python2]

Originally Posted by X-ffdo

"No Warning Shots".........

Double tap warning shots to center mass......

[IAmASensFan]

Originally Posted by Python2

Double tap warning shots to center mass......

Boy, I'd hate to see you when you mean business.

[TaxMan]

Originally Posted by Python2

Double tap warning shots to center mass......

Warning shots..............of course!!!
But my training has taught me not to miss what I'm shooting at.
Those were your warning shots.

[WKC]

Originally Posted by TaxMan

Warning shots..............of course!!!
But my training has taught me not to miss what I'm shooting at.
Those were your warning shots.

It is very difficult to overcome that training. This was clearly illustrated to me during the IDPA Safety Officer training. During the practical portion of the class, the instructor asked one of the student to miss the COM and hit the -3 zone. When the timer went off, the gun came out and went immediately for the 0 zone. The instructor then tried to shoot the -3 zone himself with the same result.

Warning shots, shoot to wound,... I don't think so.