When does concealed NOT mean concealed

[mjones]

Originally Posted by Glock32

In California it takes one call and Fred will get his permit yanked. Simple as that.

A California CCW allows you to:

A. Carry a concealed firearm, and
B. Carry a loaded firearm in public.

Guess which one Fred just violated?

I agree with you completely revocation is nearly guaranteed; hence 'a bad idea'

However, being licensed per 12050 for CCW provides exemptions in other areas of the penal code regardless of the state of whether the weapon is concealed or not.

I suppose I should make the restriction on Fred from above 'tougher' ...
Fred lives in an incorporated city.

[G36 Steve]

Originally Posted by Feather

I am confused about something and would appreciate some advice/information from a knowledgeable person. I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon (CCW). I read somewhere that I have the option of carrying a loaded gun concealed OR unconcealed. I know that in counties with less than 200,000 persons, the permit must be for unconcealed carry only. So, with a CCW that was issued in a county that has millions of inhabitants, may I carry in the open and not be in violation of the relevant CCW laws?

State of California, Department of Justice
Standard Application for CCW License
Section 4 – CCW License Conditions and RestrictionsThe licensee is responsible for all liability for, injury to, or death of any person, or damage to any property which may result through any act or omission of either the licensee or the agency that issued the license. In the event any claim, suit, or action is brought against the agency that issued the license, its chief officer or any of its employees, by reason of, or in connection with any such act or omission, the licensee shall defend, indemnify, and hold harmless the agency that issued the license, its chief officer or any of its employees from such claim, suit, or action.
The licensee authorizes the licensing agency to investigate, as they deem necessary, the licensee’s record and character to ascertain any and all information which may concern his/her qualifications and justification to be issued a license to carry a concealed weapon and release said agency of any and all liability arising out of such investigation.
While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:
• Consume any alcoholic beverage.
• Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site
consumption.
• Be under the influence of any medication or drug, whether prescribed or not.
• Refuse to show the license or surrender the concealed weapon to any peace officer upon
demand.
• Impede any peace officer in the performance of his/her duties.
• Present himself/herself as a peace officer to any person unless he/she is, in fact, a peace
officer as defined by California law.
• Unjustifiably display a concealed weapon.
• Carry a concealed weapon not listed on the permit.
• Carry a concealed weapon at times or circumstances other than those specified in the permit.

Pursuant to U.S. Government Code – Title 49, Chapter 26, Section 1472(1) and Federal Aviation Regulation 121.583, a license to carry a concealed weapon does not authorize a person to carry a firearm, tear gas, or any dangerous weapon aboard commercial airlines. Further, a person must
declare that he/she is carrying such firearm, tear gas, or dangerous weapon BEFORE entering the boarding area of an air terminal where the security checks are made. Such violation can result in arrest by law enforcement.

Any violation of these restrictions or conditions may invalidate the CCW license and may void any further use of the license until reinstated by the licensing authority. Any arrest for a felony or serious misdemeanor, including driving under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs, is cause for invalidating
the license.

If your CCW is invalidated by you violating one of the above restrictions or conditions you may be arrested for 12025 & 12031 or any number of other charges deemed appropriate at the time.

[Scout]

In the state of Nevada.....There is no such law that allows you to "open carry"......Period.....

[sfpcservice]

Originally Posted by Feather

I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon (CCW). I read somewhere that I have the option of carrying a loaded gun concealed OR unconcealed.

I believe what Feather is referring to is the legal opinion published by Davis and Associates over on Calguns.

The legal opinion says:

A license to carry a concealed handgun permits
both the carrying of a loaded or unloaded gun in either a concealed or open manner. Penal Code
§§ 12027(j) and 12031(b)(6).

The thread is located here: City of Los Angeles and LAPD Policy and Guidelines on CCW Issuance - Calguns.net

And the legal opinion is here: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/ccw...2009-09-05.pdf

I think the basis of the attorneys opinion is that there is no criminal recourse if a person who has a 12050 license carries openly because none of the CCW exemptions to 12025 specify that the weapon has to be concealed for the exemption to apply. I'm not an attorney so I couldn't say if this is true, but I would think it would go along the same course as a very bad UOC encounter, you're still going to jail even though you didn't break the law and your CCW explodes in front of you at the speed of light.

[Feather]

That is exactly what I was referring to. Even though a person with a CCW license may not be violating an explicit part of the CCW laws, based on the exemptions listed elsewhere for CCW holders, carrying in the open would be frowned upon and an arrest for disturbing the peace (or something like that) would be a likely result. It would also show bad judgment to carry openly when the license states "concealed," so revocation based on bad judgment may also be justified by some issuing authorities. I believe the gun should stay concealed as much as possible until it becomes necessary to expose it for defense in order to maintain the element of surprise and for other tactical reasons.

Thanks to everyone for responding to my question. I appreciate the input and information.

[tango-52]

Ask CitaDel over on CalGuns how that worked out for him. He had (past tense) a CCW but chose to open carry. After getting special attention from some deputies who responded to man-with-a-gun calls to a mall, and meeting with the Sheriff and refusing the Sheriff's request that he not open carry, he no longer has a CCW. On this site, we advise people on how to keep out of trouble, not how to push the gray areas and be test cases. If you can afford to be a test case, knock yourself out. But don't expect a lot of sympathy here.

[spc]

Originally Posted by tango-52

Ask CitaDel over on CalGuns how that worked out for him. He had (past tense) a CCW but chose to open carry. After getting special attention from some deputies who responded to man-with-a-gun calls to a mall, and meeting with the Sheriff and refusing the Sheriff's request that he not open carry, he no longer has a CCW. On this site, we advise people on how to keep out of trouble, not how to push the gray areas and be test cases. If you can afford to be a test case, knock yourself out. But don't expect a lot of sympathy here.

+1

I really do not wish for the whole world to know I am armed. I have many gal friends who I receive hugs from regularly and friends who are clueless to the fact that I carry. With the hugs you have to make the proactive move first to lead with your strong side arm under their arm.

spc

[paul0660]

On this site, we advise people on how to keep out of trouble, not how to push the gray areas and be test cases.

That makes sense, however, SME's here have opined, and probably testified, that ammo cannot be in the same locked container with the firearm, and that any locked container attached to a vehicle is "a utility compartment"........and I have no idea why, because the language of the code is especially clear on both of those, especially "the utility compartment".....duh, it is that thing at your right elbow while driving, not the secure, hidden box I may have installed in back of the spare tire in my van. Do I want homies keeping their gats just above their knees and behind a cheap lock..........no........but many of those probably don't pass muster as non felons or non gangsters.

Peace ...........OUT.

[CCWInstructor]

Originally Posted by mjones

With all due respect CCWI, do you have a legal basis for your statement or would it be better to say that 'the ramifications make it not a good idea'?

Understandably, the devil is often in the details. I propose an example...
Fred has a CA CCW issued via LA Count SO.
There are no printed restrictions on Fred's rice paper.
Fred Carries a Loaded, Cocked & Locked 1911 Openly in a Belt Holster.
While carrying in that manner he walks from inside his house out to his car which is parked on the public street. His house is accross the street from a public school.

True Story to prove the law. Shasta County Sheriff pulled a CCW from a resident AFTER Redding PD questioned that man Open Carry a gun. He violated 12050.

[desertrat]

Originally Posted by Truckoholic

The law says that in a county with 200,000 persons or less, you may be able to get a permit to carry openly. But your concealed carry permit allows only concealed carry.

Now about Nevada, there is no need to lock your gun up. Nevada is an open carry state, and as long as the gun is not concealed upon your person within the vehicle you are driving, then it is okay. So basically all you have to do when you cross over the state line if you do not have a Nevada permit, is remove the gun from your concealed holster and put it under the seat, or even on the seat next to you is legal, but may lead to trouble if someone driving by see's it. But yeah, same goes for open carry. It's one of those things that is legal there, but you almost never see anyone do it, and because of that, people are not used to seeing it, and the cops will most likely be harrasing you about it. And Las Vegas seems to think they are special and get to make their own gun laws. I personally think everyone should start walking around open carrying again so that people get used to it and don't have such a cow about the sight of a gun. That's a huge part of what happened to this country. Gradually the practice of carrying a gun on your hip everywhere you went just kind of faded away back in the early 1900's or something, and now people get all weird about them.

Part of this is true, in Nevada you can open carry, but in the vehicle you can not have a round in the chamber, revolvers that means no bullet in the cylinder the hammer is sitting on. It can be concealed anywhere in the vehicle, just not on your person. Most of the cops I have talked to there, want you to tell them, but you dont have to. You do see a lot of people open carry there, not a lot in town, but once you get out of it you do, I used to all the time, sometimes in town too. You just cant carry into a bar or a bank.

[brightside]

Originally Posted by spc

I have many gal friends who I receive hugs from regularly

Can I be you?

[spc]

Originally Posted by brightside

Can I be you?

Yes you can and it is easy to be successful with HUGS. A hug is a way of showing that you care for someone. It can be a brief squeeze or a more protracted show of affection. When offered in good context a hug is a wonderful way to greet folks you care for, you just need to find the right approach and demeanor to share this casual contact and show of affection.

spc

NOTE: Not all are accepting of this show of caring and affection though. Select your opportunities with care and sincerity. YMMV

[Keith92555]

Originally Posted by mjones

With all due respect CCWI, do you have a legal basis for your statement or would it be better to say that 'the ramifications make it not a good idea'?

Understandably, the devil is often in the details. I propose an example...
Fred has a CA CCW issued via LA Count SO.
There are no printed restrictions on Fred's rice paper.
Fred Carries a Loaded, Cocked & Locked 1911 Openly in a Belt Holster.
While carrying in that manner he walks from inside his house out to his car which is parked on the public street. His house is accross the street from a public school.

ROFLMAO.....Did he actually go THERE! I guess you have to let him slide on this one since he hasn't posted here much. But he has been a member since Nov '08, should know better.

[CCWInstructor]

I missed it. I'll stick with my answer.


Read page 6 of the DOJ application.

While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:

Unjustifiably display a concealed weapon.

Shall not is a legal term.

[RedMongoosE]

Originally Posted by CCWInstructor

I missed it. I'll stick with my answer.


Read page 6 of the DOJ application.

While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:

Unjustifiably display a concealed weapon.

Shall not is a legal term.

you, my friend, are CORRECT!

A CCW is for Concealed Carry, NOT OPEN CARRY. although the law states you can open carry a loaded firearm in the time of an event that threatens your life of the life of a loved one, for a brief moment in time. so your CCW is not a role when you expose your firearm because a guy pulls out a knife, but after that "brief moment of time", if you dont conceal your firearm again (with a ccw permt), then you are carrying a loaded firearm in public with out a permit.



check pc 12031(j)(1)



(j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the
carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would
otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the
person or property of himself or herself or of another is in
immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is
necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used
in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and
after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has
been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its
assistance.