Deadly Force Alternative?

[libertarian]

RomansDad is right, we should be responsible (and well trained) enough to handle a range of force options.

Personally, I'm just out of pockets. Between the gun, spare magazine, knife, keys, wallet, and cell phone, I already feel like batman half the time. I have a very powerful flashlight on my keychain, but a seperate flashlight and OC spray too? I'd just be missing the shark repellant and grappling hook. But if you've got the room, go for it. I like the idea of OC for when a CCW is not practical or permitted.

But Nightingale has also got a point - a prosecutor probably would go after that point - in fact, if you DON'T carry any less-lethal options, they'll be all over that, too. At least you'll be alive to face the proscutor down and have your attorney explain your actions.

As a side question - if a private property owner can exclude you from the property for carrying a concealed weapon if they post a sign saying "NO WEAPONS" would that extend to OC or a taser as well? I assume it probably would...

[ranger2/75]

I think that would be a question that one of the more knowlegable members should help with. I hope one will chime in as I think that is a great question, and I would like an answer for that one as well.

[ranger2/75]

I didn't mean to open up such a can of worms; on the other hand hopefuly this makes some of us think about what their options are and if they need more. From what I have read I will be getting a LifeAct for my family members and myself as well.

Stun guns are falable too. I was hit by one while in the service while trainning for our invasion of Haiti that never happened we were training to use less leathal wepons some early stunguns and pepper spray included. We all had to take and deliver a hit, I know kinda dumb but i was a enlisted and fallowed orders. The Lt. hit me with the zapper super special toy and I handed him the little dart thingies and tolled hit that it hurt really bad and asked him never to do it again. BTW Going through the gas chanber in basic didn't do more than a runny nose for a while. Yes I have been told in the past that I am wierd.

I think that I would agree with some of the others here in that if you are worried about getting confused as to what you drew you may want to consider some more trainning

The biggest lesson that the engaguements that I was involved in (millitarily) was those who question themselves at the golden moment are the ones who don't go home. That in and of itself makes sure that I traine regularly. Do I have a permit? No! However I have trained for the last three years in preperation for that event. Drastic? Maybee. Necasary ; I say yes.

[OCCCW]

I figured as much "dude", however, the room is almost unusable now

[OCCCW]

Originally Posted by JandJDude

I'm sure part of that is due to the nature of the spray itself. If it is accidentally discharged, it can linger around for a while and make the room basically unusable for a while. Not that I would know.

They are great little things too. I would suggest them to anyone who didn't want to carry a gun, knife or anything else that's potentially lethal.

sorry, forgot to include quote....

I figured as much "dude", however, the room is almost unusable now.

[bernardrizzo]

In my thought processes regarding obtaining a CCW I went over all alternatives. This much I know...

I do not want to take another's life. Doing so leaves an indelible mark upon one's self. Mas Ayoob described the process best in his book, "In the gravest extreme". Those of you who served our country and experienced combat know this all too well.

I am 46 years old and while in good condition, I do not want to be rolling on the ground with an assailant. I am quite willing to "put on my boogie shoes" and get out of Dodge as fast as possible. I do not have an ego to feed. I am quite willing to run away if needed.

However, I allowed myself the option of having less than lethal defense mechanisms available to me should the need arise. If I find myself in a situation that I cannot get out of (and I should have been aware enough in the beginning to avoid it if possible) then I want to be able to meet the threat with the appropriate level of response. Lower levels of threat should be responded to with less than lethal means. I have pepper spray available to me and find it a comfort that I can respond appropriately.

I will do whatever it take to avoid having to take another's life. That being said, I AM getting my CCW in order to protect myself and my family should there be no other choice...

Key words there, "no other choice".

I beleive that we have a duty to have other choices available. I beleive we have a right to use deadly force when there is no other choice.

[CCW-G30]

Originally Posted by SierraNevadaCCW

They were when I bought one at a swap meet as a teenager....so were butterfly knives and other stealthy evil killing devices.

I too remember those bygone days when most anything short of a switchblade could be obtained from the local mall cutlery store.

[CCWInstructor]

28% of the general population does not react to chemical agents. 7% do not react to a electronic weapon.

I haven't wanted to comment on this subject because of a pending court case I was the expert on a recent case. It is now back from the jury, so I can talk. Subject A spays subject B. Subject A gets arrested. My bill alone was 4,000.00. His legal bill had to be 30,000.00 plus for the trail. He was found not guilty.

For the record. I do not carry chemical agent or a Electronic Weapon. I'm a POST certified, and Manufacture certified instructor in both. Doing a search on West law, no gun case has factored in the suspect had a chemical agent on them. If I need a firearm, I will use a firearm. Anything short of that I will retreat.

This is off-duty, not in uniform in the performance of my duties. TMMV.

[spc]

Thanks for chiming in with these facts regarding these alternative force devices. We do have our responsibilities in avoiding the situation where we will need to use our weapon for self defense.

If and when the situation arises having too many choices can cloud the decision making process possibly creating an undesirable delay that could be fatal. If/when we have issues with the need for self-defense, we are victims and need to act now. LEO has more hands on, on a consistent basis to be able to read and determine the need for levels of force. We don't have that kind of regular contact to keep us as tuned up.

Ramble over.

spc

[X-ffdo]

Is that Kimber device, something that we could put to the test in a controlled environment? Test and see what it actually does?. I am kind of old school.
Has anyone read the book "On killing"? It shows you what people that have killed go through, how they cope. I have a copy somewheres.....
Yeah its nasty. If there was some other way out. Don't do like in the movies, where they go through the guys wallet and there are pictures of family. In the case of commies the big thing was to carry your diary, sort of a status thing, so a search, I have been told, was in order. For intel exploitation. That is how Felix caught Che..... code 500 , AMF!

[X-ffdo]

Originally Posted by libertarian

RomansDad is right, we should be responsible (and well trained) enough to handle a range of force options.

Personally, I'm just out of pockets. Between the gun, spare magazine, knife, keys, wallet, and cell phone, I already feel like batman half the time. I have a very powerful flashlight on my keychain, but a seperate flashlight and OC spray too? I'd just be missing the shark repellant and grappling hook. But if you've got the room, go for it. I like the idea of OC for when a CCW is not practical or permitted.

But Nightingale has also got a point - a prosecutor probably would go after that point - in fact, if you DON'T carry any less-lethal options, they'll be all over that, too. At least you'll be alive to face the proscutor down and have your attorney explain your actions.

As a side question - if a private property owner can exclude you from the property for carrying a concealed weapon if they post a sign saying "NO WEAPONS" would that extend to OC or a taser as well? I assume it probably would...

When I leave home I do my personal count 1,2. etc....All items are in pockets.
I know what you mean, Batman.

[BonoVox]

I agree with the last few posts. Relying on alternatives is trouble for Joe CCW Citizen. We are not trying to apprehend a suspect like a LEO is. If you are CCWing you are either in fear for your life or not. No grey area.

Now if you do not have a CCW. Alternatives might be your only choice when you are in fear for your life. When some rapist, car jacker, armed robber, or/and murderer attacks you....you need to fight with whatever you brought to the fight for possibly your life.

One thing I have learned from knowing a lot of individuals that CCW is they are MUCH MUCH MUCH more likely to avoid some everyday situations that everyday Joe might escalate. When the aggressive person wants that parking spot in a busy parking lot they are the type to give it up with a wave and a smile.

[X-ffdo]

Amen to that! It is like carrying someone or something sensitive in your aircraft........, be smooth, flow like water and you were never there!

[protectmine]

Yes it is good idea (as I have been instructed) to have less lethal force with you. I carry at a minimum pepper spray and usually a SureFire Flashlight. You would be surprised how well the flashlight works at night (and even in daylight is blinding). That case in AZ is a great indicator as to WHY you should have less lethal force with you. May even keep you out of jail when an overzealous prosecutor is on the case.

The Payson Roundup: 10 years for Harold Fish

Had Mr. Fish had pepper spray he may have been able to subdue this man long enough to get away. The threat had no knife, no gun, no weapon except his hands.