Deadly Force Alternative?

[RomanDad]

The more choices, the better.

[Python2]

Originally Posted by The Gimper

Hmm. I've been told by some firearms instructors that if you carry pepper spray along with your CCW, it can actually help to prove your case that you were in fear for your life, and that you honestly believed that the use of deadly force was your only option. Even if you don't use it, it can show that you considered other options, but ruled them out as not being sufficient to stop the threat.

Any thoughts?

Uh huh, as if the intended victim has all the time in the world to do a "Mini-my-ni-mo", Do I pull my spray or gun?
My thought is, I might just confuse myself and end up dead. If its the only weapon you have, then by all means.

[ttsail]

Originally Posted by Python2

Uh huh, as if the intended victim has all the time in the world to do a "Mini-my-ni-mo", Do I pull my spray or gun?
My thought is, I might just confuse myself and end up dead. If its the only weapon you have, then by all means.

In some cases I would think a CCW holder would be aware enough of his or her surroundings to anticipate a probable deadly encounter to use a non lethal alternative to avoid shooting someone, then again... you never know, bad things can happen fast and without warning.

I carry pepper spray daily for that reason and hope I make the right decision if faced with it, civil legalities aside.

[RomanDad]

This thread is really starting to frighten me....

Our basic argument to CCWness is that the AVERAGE CITIZEN is just as responsible to carry a firearm for self defense as a police officer.

Police officers are given lots of NON -LETHAL alternatives to using their firearms and are expected to be able to use them appropriately on a sliding scale of escalating force.

Likewise CCW holders are supposed to understand that same sliding scale and not resort to deadly force unless they have to, REGARDLESS of what they also have with them in terms of NON-LETHAL FORCE options.

Now we have several posts saying basically "I'm afraid Ill be unfairly judged if I justifiably use deadly force and had other non-lethal weapons on me / I dont think I can physically be expected to react to a sliding escalation of force situation if I have a choice between deadly and NON deadly force options. It makes it so much easier if my only choice is the gun."

Having the gun as your only answer doesnt make any of these issues EASIER... It only makes them MORE DIFFICULT. The more tools you have in your bag, the more able you are to deal with ANY situation, and the less you will be accused of "rushing to judgment" by those who will INEVITABLY stand in judgment of you after a use of force.

[SierraNevadaCCW]

Originally Posted by Python2

Uh huh, as if the intended victim has all the time in the world to do a "Mini-my-ni-mo", Do I pull my spray or gun?
My thought is, I might just confuse myself and end up dead. If its the only weapon you have, then by all means.

Took me a split second.... spray was out and dummy was down. He had no weapons and was unarmed. A very angry irrational fake Navy SEAL wannabe who charged me with his fist cocked back.

If I had pulled my gun...it might not have been justified in the eyes of our liberal justice system, someone might have been killed and the situation would have been way more complicated than it already ended up being.

I was fresh out of a two week stay in the hospital from a knee reconstruction...I wasn't going to fight. And if it's a female CCW we are talking about, out there....pepper spray is a valuable tool. Plus, it's viewed way way differently for a woman to use pepper than a man.

+1 Roman's Dad.... He said it best.

[rickr96]

Originally Posted by RomanDad

This thread is really starting to frighten me....

Our basic argument to CCWness is that the AVERAGE CITIZEN is just as responsible to carry a firearm for self defense as a police officer.

Police officers are given lots of NON -LETHAL alternatives to using their firearms and are expected to be able to use them appropriately on a sliding scale of escalating force.

Likewise CCW holders are supposed to understand that same sliding scale and not resort to deadly force unless they have to, REGARDLESS of what they also have with them in terms of NON-LETHAL FORCE options.

Now we have several posts saying basically "I'm afraid Ill be unfairly judged if I justifiably use deadly force and had other non-lethal weapons on me / I dont think I can physically be expected to react to a sliding escalation of force situation if I have a choice between deadly and NON deadly force options. It makes it so much easier if my only choice is the gun."

Having the gun as your only answer doesnt make any of these issues EASIER... It only makes them MORE DIFFICULT. The more tools you have in your bag, the more able you are to deal with ANY situation, and the less you will be accused of "rushing to judgment" by those who will INEVITABLY stand in judgment of you after a use of force.

Very well said, sir. +1

[Hoser]

I agree with the last couple of posts. A lot of folks haven't really taken the time to think about the fact that short of someone pulling a gun/knife/club out against you, you're going to need to be prepared to go hands on if you don't have a less lethal alternative like pepper spray. Yes, running is always an option, but what if he catches up to you? What if you're with your family and the guy wants to fight?

I've seen this type of question/scenario bantered about on other boards quite often. Some folks like to say "I'd say I was worried about him getting my gun, so I shot him" or "one punch to the head could have killed me, so I shot him", but those defenses won't fly. Cops get into fights almost daily and they use other methods besides deadly force.

[AMS MIKE]

With what everyone has been said, this is my opinion:

The non-lethal pepper spray and other products alike are a great solution for people WITHOUT CCW's to protect themselves in a self defense situation. Those with CCW's can carry pepper spray or other alike products if they choose.

My carry weapon is my .45 pistol

[Spicy McHaggis]

I've seen pepper spray in action and all I can say is I'd rather have the taser over the spray. There are always exceptions, but taser > pepper spray IMO. CCW uber alles.

[Hoser]

Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis

I've seen pepper spray in action and all I can say is I'd rather have the taser over the spray. There are always exceptions, but taser > pepper spray IMO. CCW uber alles.

Good point...spray, taser or some other alternative.

[Poogsdad]

Originally Posted by RomanDad

This thread is really starting to frighten me....

Our basic argument to CCWness is that the AVERAGE CITIZEN is just as responsible to carry a firearm for self defense as a police officer.

Police officers are given lots of NON -LETHAL alternatives to using their firearms and are expected to be able to use them appropriately on a sliding scale of escalating force.

Likewise CCW holders are supposed to understand that same sliding scale and not resort to deadly force unless they have to, REGARDLESS of what they also have with them in terms of NON-LETHAL FORCE options.

Now we have several posts saying basically "I'm afraid Ill be unfairly judged if I justifiably use deadly force and had other non-lethal weapons on me / I dont think I can physically be expected to react to a sliding escalation of force situation if I have a choice between deadly and NON deadly force options. It makes it so much easier if my only choice is the gun."

Having the gun as your only answer doesnt make any of these issues EASIER... It only makes them MORE DIFFICULT. The more tools you have in your bag, the more able you are to deal with ANY situation, and the less you will be accused of "rushing to judgment" by those who will INEVITABLY stand in judgment of you after a use of force.

I could not agree more with RomanDad's post!!!

I believe something similar to this subject came recently in another thread: http://www.calccw.com/Forums/experie...html#post46175

Thanks,

[El Gato]

Having personally been in a fight where a large crazy guy was trying to both unarrest himself and take my glock from me at the same time, and having been pepper sprayed, and having it dripping off of my face (but not in my eyes), I can attest to the fact that people can fight with a face full of pepper marinade... didn't slow me down... It will generally take the fight outa folks if you give it time to cook.... it is still a great alternative to beating them senseless or shooting them... but it doesn't work 100%... but neither do handguns when used for self defense... that's why we like our friends shotgun and rifle to accompany us when hostilities might ensue.....

In my humble opinion...

[Justaguy]

Originally Posted by RomanDad

The more tools you have in your bag, the more able you are to deal with ANY situation, and the less you will be accused of "rushing to judgment" by those who will INEVITABLY stand in judgment of you after a use of force.

I agree.
If you think about it, we already use multiple "tools" at our disposal.
Avoiding dangerous areas is one (avoidance). Running away, if at all possible, is another (distance). Locking our doors, home or auto (barrier).
If I thought I cold chance the circumstance with a rock, garbage can or other item (yes, pepper spray), I would use it.
The greater the number of options, the better. Just don't let them overwhelm you to the point where you lose the ultimate option.

[Hoser]

...I just wish throwing stars were legal...

[SierraNevadaCCW]

Originally Posted by Hoser

...I just wish throwing stars were legal...

They were when I bought one at a swap meet as a teenager....so were butterfly knives and other stealthy evil killing devices.