CT laser grips or Laser max question

[kathyminx]

I hope I didn't contradict anyone here with my posting!!!! I was sort of thinking out loud about two of my TRAINING handguns with two lasers I got to experiment with. I never intended to imply that I've either modified a CCW handgun nor do I ever want to imply that I know anything about the CCW process and ONLY use those things (lasers) in my place to dry-fire (i.e. I would NEVER intentionally paint an inhabited area or target). I DON'T live in OC and would NEVER intentionally contradict CCWI about firearms related stuff! I'd be very happy to delete my earlier posting if there's any problem here. Seriously, I was only trying to say something about marksmanship practice with non-CCW equipment in the privacy of ones home!!!!

[rundmlee]

Originally Posted by kathyminx

I hope I didn't contradict anyone here with my posting!!!

I think it's okay for you post your thoughts/opinion even if it may contradict others' opinions.
First of all, I'm delighted to hear someone who does diligently dry-fire practice to work on trigger control. I suppose if you find that the lasers help your training, then that's a good thing.
For me, imho, when I dry fire practice for trigger control, I am able to tell if my trigger press is correct since I'm focusing hard on my front sight and I'm able to tell if it moves or not. With a laser, are you looking at your front sight or the laser point? And then finally, since my ccw stuff do not have lasers, it just makes sense for me to train with what I've got. Now, even though my training may differ from yours, again, I think it's great that you are training.

[akulahawk]

I have tried the CT products on the store demos. What I found out is that if I index where I normally do, I light up my right index finger. Although this could be considered a training issue for using lasers, I wouldn't probably use a CT product without a lot of retraining to use a slightly lower index point of the weapon. IMHO, a laser of some sort would be a good tool for teaching trigger control IF the shooter can keep his/her eye on the front sight and note whether or not the bright red dot way out there moves appreciably during dry fire practice. Should it be the only method used? nope. I've never used one... and I actually shoot pretty well using good old iron sights.

IMHO, if it's going to be used as a training adjunct, the shooter should learn the basics first and foremost and just as with focusing on the front sight and the target being a bit fuzzy, the dot should be too... you'd be looking for movement and peripheral vision is great at that task.

That all being said, I'm not a trainer, and I don't use a laser either. They have their place though... but not on my weapons!

[Bombard]

Maybe I got a bad pair.

I tried a pair on a SW 66. At home I set the laser to match the sights. Then at the range I used the laser to point shoot single action. It was WAY off from point of impact. I lined them up again, they were WAY off in another direction. I shot the biggest group I've made since I was 10.

I went back to the sights, the groups were regular size.

I returned the grips.

[Eirerogue]

I've got LaserMax on my G27 and CT on my M&P 340. They are absolutely great. As for "giveaways", I've seen the research and pictures. I'm not interested in extended firefight scenarios. Do the research yourself on average shots fired, time expended, etc. on your average home invasion or robbery. You won't be in an extended battle. You're talking about 2-5 seconds and maybe 3 shots fired.

If youre mindset is "firefight", then dump the handgun and use a long gun. You won't be happy otherwise. Just my dos centavos.

[Mad Geek]

I have the LaserMax Guide Rod laser on my "normal carry" and until a couple weekends ago at an indoor range, I hadn't really had an opportunity to try to use them for shooting. I wasn't impressed with the POI compared to the laser POA on the target. I'd need a little more time to practice indoors, and maybe some dry-firing practice using the laser before I can fault the laser. I can see using it for dry-fire training being the biggest benefit at this point, and that's what I've heard from others.

At 10-15 yards, the difference between POA and POI isn't significant with mine, but just a lot different that what I expected, and no means of adjusting with the guide rod replacement.

[ptbarnacle]

I noticed the beam showing on the smoke from an indoor range session a couple weeks ago- first time shooting it indoors. Definately would bug other shooters in the lanes adjacent. Kept me from wandering the muzzle around other lane's targets.

On my S&W 340, I check last night and the index finger can be lit up easily with my CT. I guess though, when unloaded, draw, present, and dryfire, it wasn't a problem for me. I feel I won't draw until I plan to shoot, and my finger is moving towards the double action trigger. But I did notice it. Good to know if drawn out of Bedside safe in the middle of the night with a sound. But when investigating a couple of sounds since, I have carried it to check doors in my strong hand light enough not to activate the laser anyways. Of couse if I did, my labrador would be chasing it around as I was looking for intruders . I bought the laser pointer for $5 with the CT grips. My dog is crazy about it. I plan to laze the intruder and have my Heavy lap dog jump on their chest.

[akulahawk]

I've seen dogs go absolutely nuts over the dot... same with cats. IMHO, there is a time and place to use all the things that you can normally find on a defensive weapon. You'd just have to know when they'd be useful.

For instance, an IR laser used in conjunction with NVG's has an application... and looks different on YouTube when the .mil guys were using them. Not a normal civilian use (or possibly legal for us to use either). Flash lights, lasers, night sights, heavy lap dog (that chases the dot), whatever, they all have their uses.

[Poogsdad]

As I stated earlier, I am a great fan of Crimson Trace Lasers, particularly on J-Frame Revolvers. The Model 405 Laser Grips I have on my 637 are zeroed at 15 yards to my preferred carry load, Remington 125 Grain, Golden Saber, Plus Ps.

As a training aid, the laser definitely makes any weaknesses in trigger control and follow through very obvious.

Using the sights is very important and ensuring that using the sights, rudimentary though they may be, exclusive of the Laser during training is necessary. The 405s have an On/Off switch so I just turn them off when I practice.

I do shoot some strings using the laser exclusively, normally toward the end of a training session, to verify zero and to keep my comfort level high with them.

The circumstances under which I believe I would most likely employ the 637 would be at night when I can not see the J-Frame sights anyway or in a SHTF situation when my Kimbers are no longer an option.

Being able to effectively engage a target when I can not see the sights or when I am under a great deal of stress by simply placing the red dot on target and squeezing the trigger is quite comforting.

I agree that under some environmental conditions such as smoke or fog, the laser can be a potential liability as it can point straight back to you when employed. This is, fortunately, a very rare occurrence, in my experience, but being aware of the possibility is a healthy thing.

The laser illuminating my trigger finger has never been an issue for me. I purposely press the top of my extended trigger finger against the bottom of the diode housing and place the pad of my trigger finger on the frame directly above the trigger when I index the 637.

I have no experience with the LaserMax Guide Rod Lasers, however, having the ability to adjust the Laser to my preferred carry round is important to me. Being unable to do this with the LaserMax product would bother me. This may not be as much of an issue with the LaserMax units, however, given their being mounted directly under an close to the bore line of the pistol, rather than offset of the bore line like the Crimson Trace units.

I cannot help but wonder if the stresses endured by the Guide Rod during firing would result in an accelerated MTBF for the LaserMax units. As I said, I have no first hand experience with the LaserMax Lasers, so this is conjecture on my part.

Thanks,

[Austin]

Its funny to see new shooters at the local range with lasers on their guns. They hold the gun steady at center mass and right before the shot, the laser flies off the target!

[kathyminx]

Love this one too. I have a little laser pen to exercise my dog!

b.t.w. The places I've looked for IR lasers for firearms and filters for Sure-Lights etc. can be difficult to get unless you have a Mil or LE letterhead. IR filters for flashlights aren't much of a problem, but I've found that the bandwidth of the modern US NV equipment is different from the 1st gen Soviet era and the 1st gen don't see a lot of IR laser diodes. A mix of dark red, green and blue cellophane wrapping on a flashlight lens is bright in both NVGs and videos with night-shot (glows dull red to naked eye) and I'm going to try over-exposed Ektachrome! Arrays of IR leds are easy to make and buy, but scavanged IR lasers from laser printers are super-bright in a camcorder a verrrry long way off (but not necessarily in 1st gen stuff)!

Oops again. Caveat: my IR experimenting had to do with wildlife observation.

Enjoy!
turbo-dweeb-girl

Originally Posted by akulahawk

I've seen dogs go absolutely nuts over the dot... same with cats. IMHO, there is a time and place to use all the things that you can normally find on a defensive weapon. You'd just have to know when they'd be useful.

For instance, an IR laser used in conjunction with NVG's has an application... and looks different on YouTube when the .mil guys were using them. Not a normal civilian use (or possibly legal for us to use either). Flash lights, lasers, night sights, heavy lap dog (that chases the dot), whatever, they all have their uses.