Modifications

[alexf9496]

I got into a discussion with a buddy of mine the other day regarding the legal consequences of a "modified" weapon on your CCW permit, should you have to use it in defense of your or others life.

His point was that in discussing this issue with a defense attorney, he was advised that a carry weapon should be bone stock from the manufacturer. No modified trigger, no aftermarket sights, no aftermarket barrel.

My point was that as long as the modifications at the time of inspection are within the approval specifications of the issuing agency and as long as it does not compromise safety, then you should be good to go. In other words, if the minimum trigger pull is specified as 4.25lbs and you're at 5 lbs with a quality trigger kit, it would not matter if it was the stock trigger or an aftermarket trigger, since it was inspected and signed off by the issuing agency.

We're talking the basic components of a pistol (ie. fire control, barrel, sights, bushing, etc...). We are not talking weapons mounted lights, lasers, or any other add-ons.

The question now becomes how much, if any, of an advantage would it be to the prosecutor or trial lawyer when it comes down to a civil or criminal trial when the weapon is inspected and found to have these modifications.

Open for discussion...

[libertarian]

The short answer: Any good plaintiff's lawyer will crawl over you with a microscope and find anything to use in a lawsuit. Any good defense lawyer will undo much of that. There's no telling WHAT the jury will actually do, if it comes to that.

It's fair to say that you DO NOT want to modify a carry weapon after it has been inspected, and modifications that might affect safety or reliability are not a good idea in any defense weapon.

[SVTNate]

First, to satisfy CA rules of professional responsibility, I must say that I am not your attorney, nor am I looking to establish an attorney-client relationship with the original poster or anyone else reading this thread. If you want legal advice, I suggest that you seek out a competent attorney who can counsel you on such matters.

That said, I like custom guns. A lot. One of my CCW guns is a Gemini Customs S&W 640 .357 j-frame. Another is a Colt Defender which has been extensively modified by Springfield Custom. Soon I'll also carry a stainless Colt Commander, even more extensively modified by Springfield Custom.

I have given this topic some though, although I must admit that I have not searched for case law or otherwise given it any serious legal research. Here is my opinion (not to be taken as legal advice) -

1. In my opinion, one should get any and all custom work done by a well-known, established and accomplished gunsmith who specializes in that particular platform. Mine have all been done by members of the American Pistolsmiths Guild, and my 1911's are worked on by a winner of the APG Pistolsmith of the Year winner. They are well known for their expertise and quality of work.

2. Keep receipts, build sheets, everything. That way, the gunsmith can verify the work he's done on your gun.

3. Take your custom guns in for safety inspection. Do not modify them after that point.

4. Be prepared to explain why do had the work done. Take for example, the Hydra-Porting on my custom revolver. It reduces recoil, which allows me to shoot more accurately, and hit only what I intend to hit. The trigger work the guns? Same reason. All have passed OCSD safety inspection with their current, modified triggers. Refinish? Hell, I just look like the way it looks. Carry bevel? Less wear and tear on holsters, more comfortable to hold.

I would NOT carry a gun that I modified myself, nor would I carry something modified by "a buddy", a local guy who is a small operation, etc. The names of the people who work on my guns are nationally known and respected in their industry. If something ever happens, they will most likely still be around, respected, building custom guns.

I would NOT carry a 1911 with Wicked Grips grim reaper medallion grips, Punisher grips, "Kill em all" grips, or the Glocks you see with custom engraving on the muzzle that reads "smile, wait for flash" or whatever nonsense people do.

New safeties, trigger jobs, etc. are okay, but I would never remove a safety feature. For example, you can remove the Series 80 system from a new Colt quite easily with parts from Brownell's. I would never do this on a carry gun... hell, I wouldn't do it on any gun, because you never know when a gun might need to be used defensively.

Paranoid? I don't think so. Remember..... limit liability and CYA.

Oh, and your safety inspection sheets that you get from the armory? Keep a copy on file as long as you keep that gun on your CCW. But, I think that's a good idea for any gun on your CCW, modified or not.

Finally, when I write up a build sheet to get a custom gun built that I intend to use for carry, I clearly express on the build sheet that the gun is for CCW use and must be safety inspected by my issuing agency.

[RomanDad]

NOTHING should be done to lighten trigger pull.

I wouldn't worry about INCREASING trigger pull (such as adding the New York Trigger springs to a glock.)

As far as sights or grips, I wouldn't worry about it. There is really no such thing as "Stock" sights for most guns now... You can order most of them with a variety of different sight options. And Grips that make the gun fit your hand better are a GOOD thing... Anything that INCREASES your control of the gun and your control of shot placement is generally a GOOD thing... Forget about the attorneys for a minute. Worry about the ACTUAL EVENT. You OWN THE BULLET. ITS ON YOU... ANYTHING YOU CAN DO TO MAKE SURE IT GOES RIGHT WHERE YOU NEED IT TO, IS A GOOD THING.

The only exception I would make to this is laser pointers... They have a negative connotation thanks to Hollywood, and I would avoid them on a carry gun.

I personally would avoid a lot of other gunsmithing....

[Mad Geek]

While I don't disagree with you "negative connotation" with the laser sight, but again, they are nothing more than sights. Is it your opinion that the negative feelings that Hollywood has placed on them would be enough to make a liscense holde appear as a "cowboy" or "ninja" even with a justified shoot?

[Dan M.]

Originally Posted by Mad Geek

While I don't disagree with you "negative connotation" with the laser sight, but again, they are nothing more than sights. Is it your opinion that the negative feelings that Hollywood has placed on them would be enough to make a liscense holde appear as a "cowboy" or "ninja" even with a justified shoot?

For what it's worth, in the OC laser sights are not approved on carry firearms, maybe because of that "cowboy" thing, I don't know. Also something to think about, if you spend tons of money on mods (that don't affect your armory inspection) to your carry firearm, if you end up having to use that firearm, it goes bye-bye for a while, and will return (maybe) in who knows what condition.

[RomanDad]

Originally Posted by Mad Geek

While I don't disagree with you "negative connotation" with the laser sight, but again, they are nothing more than sights. Is it your opinion that the negative feelings that Hollywood has placed on them would be enough to make a liscense holde appear as a "cowboy" or "ninja" even with a justified shoot?

Yes. Too many movies have been made that basically use the "Laser dot" as a "youre about to be shot" intimidation thing.... "Phone Booth" and "The Negotiator" immediately come to mind.... but I can probably come up with several other examples if I were pressed.

Remember.... YOU dont get to ultimately decide what a "Justified Shoot" is. A D.A., a Judge and Finally a JURY decide what a Justified shoot is (I list them in that order because they each have the discretion to end the case before the next in line gets involved).... And they are evaluating events that they didnt personally witness.... So they have to look at the totality of the facts and decide if youre a dirtbag, or a cowboy, or an innocent Joe who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time....

Originally Posted by Dan M.

For what it's worth, in the OC laser sights are not approved on carry firearms, maybe because of that "cowboy" thing, I don't know. Also something to think about, if you spend tons of money on mods (that don't affect your armory inspection) to your carry firearm, if you end up having to use that firearm, it goes bye-bye for a while, and will return (maybe) in who knows what condition.

You're never getting that gun back. Its evidence in a homicide, and whereas the D.A. may refuse to prosecute, nothing prevents them from re-opening the case if new evidence should arise down the road. Most likely theyll put it in an evidence locker and hang on to it.... You wont want it back anyways... Its got a body on it... Consider it the cost of doing business.

[NikNak]

I personally feel that any modifications should only mimick those that LE divisions require, or suggest for their pieces. Any others could get you into more hot water with a jury .... should the need arise. IMHO