carry ammo, reload or factory

[El Gato]

I was in a court room about 2 years ago waiting to testify on a case. The officer ahead of me testified he had taken an "awl" off of the defendant who had attacked someone. The defense lawyer obviously didn't know what an awl was and asked the nice policeman to describe what an "awl" was... the cop said something like: " well, it is about as long as an icepick, but sharper and more heavy duty, like it is designed to punch through things.."

Pros.... when it was his turn... "so the awl the defendant attacked the victim with was like an icepick only better suited for punching through things ... like the victim..?"

Defense..."objection"

Judge..guilty...

[calex59]

What the "dum-dum" rounds the police use arent' good enough for you?
D) I understand you concern about costs... Just think about how expensive lawyers are! Carrying handloads can be a real problem. I would venture to say... THERE IS NO DEBATE!

One, reloading is a great way to save on cost, I have reloaded ammo most of my life and I am 66 now. Been reloading since I was 12. Two, you can reload and shoot the hell out of it on the range and if you are so hung up on someone ripping you for defending your life then you can carry factory ammo that duplicates the point of aim of your reloads.

That said, I carry reloads for defense, load solid rounds for my large calibers, .44 and above, but load hollow points for my smaller calibers, .38 special, .380 auto etc. The law won't get you for that, but they might question why you bought factory Black Talons or some other terrible sounding name ammo to carry in your CCW gun. Cops carry hollow points.

BTW, dum dums are bullets that have been sawed off (the head of a solid round) and made into a type of hollow point, so I doubt if the police are using dum dums. The term dum dum was coined during WWI when troops sawed off the heads of metal jacketed bullets to make them better killers. Look it up, google will probably work.

[El Gato]

Originally Posted by calex59

One, reloading is a great way to save on cost, I have reloaded ammo most of my life and I am 66 now. Been reloading since I was 12. Two, you can reload and shoot the hell out of it on the range and if you are so hung up on someone ripping you for defending your life then you can carry factory ammo that duplicates the point of aim of your reloads.

That said, I carry reloads for defense, load solid rounds for my large calibers, .44 and above, but load hollow points for my smaller calibers, .38 special, .380 auto etc. The law won't get you for that, but they might question why you bought factory Black Talons or some other terrible sounding name ammo to carry in your CCW gun. Cops carry hollow points.

BTW, dum dums are bullets that have been sawed off (the head of a solid round) and made into a type of hollow point, so I doubt if the police are using dum dums. The term dum dum was coined during WWI when troops sawed off the heads of metal jacketed bullets to make them better killers. Look it up, google will probably work.

I think we have covered, previously in this post both the cases where using reloads directly contributed to long prison stays and the relative causes of lost lawsuits from the use of reloads. Because "cops carry hollow points" is the justification for civilians to carry them... so that rounds don't overpenetrate and hurt innocent folks for one...

To be correct on the "dum-dum" thing... I kindly refer the reader to Wikipedia

Expanding bullet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

on the origins of the word in reference to expanding bullets is as follows: "Originally, dum-dum referred to a new type of ammunition produced in the early 1890s at the arsenal in Dum Dum near Calcutta India."

We look in chagrin at the thought that our men and women in the military would violate the Geneva convention by modifying their ammuition to expand... not to mention the fact that it would be wildly inaccurate if modified under field conditions....Most of the guys I have talked to felt very satisfied with the performance of the 30-06 round in WWII...full metal jacket and AP


I hope I haven't been unclear about this... and while I have a few gifts from God... tact isn't usually one I am visited with....

[Lee F. Smith]

Working at a gun shop with a range and a rental fleet of 65+ weapons, I have a unique vantage point to a lot of this wide ranging discussion.



There is a difference in ammo, like a mathematical equation, less money equals more problems.

Most reloads when loaded for personal consumption are better quality and more acurate. If loaded for profit, the bigger the mark-up the better(see above).

Clean equals better, dirty equals cheap.

All guns can malfuction. More expensive ones do it much less.

It takes time to do something well, time is money.

I have seen a number of reloads disassemble some fine weapons.

I have seen cheap factory ammo disassemble some fine weapons.

In my opinon wolf ammo should be given to your enemy...opps... too late it already is.

I'm going to take my Kimber CDP compact with me when I die, just in case.

[Bombard]

Originally Posted by El Gato

I think we have covered, previously in this post both the cases where using reloads directly contributed to long prison stays and the relative causes of lost lawsuits from the use of reloads. Because "cops carry hollow points" is the justification for civilians to carry them... so that rounds don't overpenetrate and hurt innocent folks for one...

I agree.

If you are shooting so much ammo in self defense that the cost is becoming a problem, then you should consider carrying reloads for self defense.

I don't think I've run into anyone who's shooting that much ammo in self defense (unless our nation's military is paying for it.) Most folks I know don't fire more than a few shots in self defense over the span of 50 years.

[THE Gimper]

Originally Posted by Bombard

Most folks I know don't fire more than a few shots in self defense over the span of 50 years.

And hopefully never.

[Justaguy]

Originally Posted by libertarian

Not really wanting to open this can of worms again, and not saying this was an 'otherwise justified' shooting, but here's the classic case of what can happen:

Handloads for self-defense: the Daniel Bias case.(The Ayoob Files) - American Handgunner | Encyclopedia.com

Originally Posted by 1buba

I'm not a fan of Ayoob. Three folks I know and trust (none of them know each other) have nothing good to say in that arena.


That said -I'm with you, factory only when I carry (or train).

Regardless of who the messenger is, the reasoning is sound.

For me, factory ammo for SD. Period.

Criminal and civil defense is expensive in both time and money. No need to make it more so...

[calex59]

Originally Posted by El Gato

I think we have covered, previously in this post both the cases where using reloads directly contributed to long prison stays and the relative causes of lost lawsuits from the use of reloads. Because "cops carry hollow points" is the justification for civilians to carry them... so that rounds don't overpenetrate and hurt innocent folks for one...

To be correct on the "dum-dum" thing... I kindly refer the reader to Wikipedia

Expanding bullet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

on the origins of the word in reference to expanding bullets is as follows: "Originally, dum-dum referred to a new type of ammunition produced in the early 1890s at the arsenal in Dum Dum near Calcutta India."

We look in chagrin at the thought that our men and women in the military would violate the Geneva convention by modifying their ammuition to expand... not to mention the fact that it would be wildly inaccurate if modified under field conditions....Most of the guys I have talked to felt very satisfied with the performance of the 30-06 round in WWII...full metal jacket and AP


I hope I haven't been unclear about this... and while I have a few gifts from God... tact isn't usually one I am visited with....

Just to be clear, I didn't say WWII, I said WWI and that is when the popular term dum dum came into being. Cops don't carry them, they carry soft point or hollow points. I will continue to shoot and carry reloads. One of my guns I use factory simply because I find it easier than reloading .380 ammo. Carry what you want, I will not let the fear of being prosecuted for saving my own life stop me from carrying reloads. I have never had a misfire with my reloads, because I take great care in making them. Enough said from me on that subject.

Oh, BTW, if you think our troops in WWII didn't do whatever they had to do to survive, including modifying ammo if they had to, then you don't know anyone who fought in that conflict. I had several relatives who did, including my favorite Marine uncle. Another clarifying point: When the troops in WWI discovered that the solid ball ammo that they were shooting would tumble when hitting an enemy soldier, they stopped sawing them off. They did just as much damage either way. WWI was the first large conflict in which jacketed ball ammo was used.

[CCWInstructor]

Dum-Dums are illegal per California Penal Code.

[1buba]

Originally Posted by Justaguy

Regardless of who the messenger is, the reasoning is sound.

For me, factory ammo for SD. Period.

Criminal and civil defense is expensive in both time and money. No need to make it more so...

Of course, you are correct in the first point.

The more I think about this though, there is just no point in handloading your carry ammo. Handloading for rifles you can, with a lot of testing and time at the bench, create a load or two that will out shoot factory ammo. However, that is normally for 100+ yards. At the short ranges of a defensive shoot - it just seems silly. Would saving 1 moa in your grouping (which at 7 yards would be .073") really help??? I don't think so. Do you have access to better self defense bullets than those offered in factory handgun loads for self defense? Don't think so there either.

The on possible thing that loading can do for self defense is let you load practice rounds that are equal to your defense loads in point of aim/impact and recoil. That is where the benefit is. NOT in reloading your actual carry ammo.

[NikNak]

Originally Posted by CCWInstructor

Dum-Dums are illegal per California Penal Code.

OK, so I feel ignorant ... wait, I am ignorant.

Now I can ask the questions.....

1. Are Federal HydraShoks "approved" in CA? I've heard them referenced as the old "FBI loads"

2. Are soft-nosed, jacketed bullets condsidered "Dum-Dum" bullets per CA penal code?

3. Are hollowpoints considered "Dum-Dum" bullets ... ie. Speer Gold Dots?

4. I have 230gr (45) and 125 gr. (38+P) Hydrashoks and 230 FMJ in my CCW pieces .. am I ok?

[Bombard]

Originally Posted by NikNak

OK, so I feel ignorant ... wait, I am ignorant.

Me too. How do they define "Dum-Dum?" I knew the history of the word, but in regular use I thought it was just an ignorant way to refer to hollow points.

[V1Rot8]

There are many, many very good hollow-point bullets loaded into supurb ammunition. Federal, Corbon, Remington, CCI (Speer) just to scratch the surface. If you can buy it at your local California firearms store, it is legal in CA. I personally swear by Federal 110's and 125's JHP in my .357 mag because they are proven street-stoppers. In my .40's, I use Speer Gold Dot HP 155's and 165's. Not only are they proven street-stoppers, they happen to be the issue ammo of the Fed. agency that arms me at work. In .45 ACP, while not the state-of-the-art anymore, the Federal 230 gr. Hydra-Shok once topped the list of street-stoppers. Conventional wisdom seems to be that you can't go wrong with any modern, name-brand HP if they function reliably in your gun. Stay away from FMJ (Hard-ball) except at the range.

[CCWInstructor]

Dum dum is you modifying the bullets, per penal code. All those commercially available are fine.