Revoked on April 13th? ... not so fast, maybe not?

[THE Gimper]

Originally Posted by gjj

rhbanjo, it does not say your license is revoked as of 4/13.

IT SAYS THEY WILL REVOKE IT ON 4/13.

There is a big difference.

What exactly is the "big difference"?. It's not like anyone will have extra time, or that she'll reconsider.

[gjj]

It means that those who got the letter with the 4/13 date can carry tomorrow. She has to revoke the license. Then, she has to notify each individual.

That is the big difference.

It is not over until the fat lady sings.

[PUNK]

Originally Posted by gjj

rhbanjo, it does not say your license is revoked as of 4/13.

IT SAYS THEY WILL REVOKE IT ON 4/13.

There is a big difference.

Originally Posted by gjj

It means that those who got the letter with the 4/13 date can carry tomorrow. She has to revoke the license. Then, she has to notify each individual.

That is the big difference.

It is not over until the fat lady sings.

reading may be my 2nd language....but....

[THE Gimper]

Originally Posted by gjj

rhbanjo, it does not say your license is revoked as of 4/13.

IT SAYS THEY WILL REVOKE IT ON 4/13.

There is a big difference.

Originally Posted by gjj

It means that those who got the letter with the 4/13 date can carry tomorrow. She has to revoke the license. Then, she has to notify each individual.

That is the big difference.

It is not over until the fat lady sings.

Perhaps. There is a difference of opinion between some of us as to whether or not she will send out another letter. In any case, even if she does send out another letter, if he is caught carrying after the 13th, he could be putting himself in legal jeopardy since the person received notice that his license would be revoked as of the 13th. If you're personally willing to take that risk, go ahead. But others might want to think long and hard about the possible consequences of following that advice.

[gjj]

"...person received notice that his license would be revoked as of the 13th."

IT DOESN'T SAY THAT.

It says they will revoke it on the 13th. It is a statement of their intention. Not a statement of a completed act.

If the letter said "Your license is hereby revoked effective 4/13", it is a done deal. Instead, the letter everyone is refering to is a letter from the appointed Sheriff for the sole purpose to cause a person to voluntarily give up their CCW. It is a threat geared towards avoiding a future revocation that has not occured yet. If she can get people to stop carrying on the 13th because they misunderstand that their CCW is not still valid, that is a bonus for her.

She will probably revoke the CCWs. But, this is a completely separate action that will require a second official letter clearly stating the license has been revoked.

[TaxMan]

Originally Posted by gjj

"...person received notice that his license would be revoked as of the 13th."

IT DOESN'T SAY THAT.

It says they will revoke it on the 13th. It is a statement of their intention. Not a statement of a completed act.

If the letter said "Your license is hereby revoked effective 4/13", it is a done deal. Instead, the letter everyone is refering to is a letter from the appointed Sheriff for the sole purpose to cause a person to voluntarily give up their CCW. It is a threat geared towards avoiding a future revocation that has not occured yet. If she can get people to stop carrying on the 13th because they misunderstand that their CCW is not still valid, that is a bonus for her.

She will probably revoke the CCWs. But, this is a completely separate action that will require a second official letter clearly stating the license has been revoked.

LOOK AT YOU OWN WORDS, the emphasis being mine of course, "WILL" not MAY, not MIGHT. That is what they "will" be doing, not what they "may intend" to do. You are arguing semantics and as THE Gimper stated,

Originally Posted by THE Gimper

If you're personally willing to take that risk, go ahead. But others might want to think long and hard about the possible consequences of following that advice.

[EM2]

Originally Posted by gjj

"...person received notice that his license would be revoked as of the 13th."

IT DOESN'T SAY THAT.

It says they will revoke it on the 13th. It is a statement of their intention. Not a statement of a completed act.

If the letter said "Your license is hereby revoked effective 4/13", it is a done deal. Instead, the letter everyone is refering to is a letter from the appointed Sheriff for the sole purpose to cause a person to voluntarily give up their CCW. It is a threat geared towards avoiding a future revocation that has not occured yet. If she can get people to stop carrying on the 13th because they misunderstand that their CCW is not still valid, that is a bonus for her.

She will probably revoke the CCWs. But, this is a completely separate action that will require a second official letter clearly stating the license has been revoked.

Originally Posted by TaxMan

LOOK AT YOU OWN WORDS, the emphasis being mine of course, "WILL" not MAY, not MIGHT. That is what they "will" be doing, not what they "may intend" to do. You are arguing semantics and as THE Gimper stated,

I disagree, go figure? Not uncommon where I come from.

First of all there was an earlier misunderstanding of what was actually sent in the letter and we are arguing over a very important aspect of the "taking" of CCWs by the OCSD.

Would someone please post VERBATIM what was actually sent to them by the OCSD.

Now, if they actually wrote that they "WILL" revoke that still means as of now they HAVE NOT YET revoked. "Will" is a statement of a future act yet to happen.

Now my humble opinion as to the next step...
Send the OCSD a demand letter stating that unless you hear from them in writting and in acordance with the law that they are in fact revoking the CCW that your intention is to continue exercising your right to CCW persuant to the issuance of your existing CCW.

[THE Gimper]

Originally Posted by EM2

Would someone please post VERBATIM what was actually sent to them by the OCSD.

It has been posted.

Originally Posted by rhbanjo

My letter says "The purpose of this letter is to provide you with official notice that unless you request that your current Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) license expire on April 13, 2009, it will be revoked on that date."

[newshooterinca]

Whatever the case may be, this will be an interesting week. She's been leading up to actual revocations for a long time and that time is finally coming.

My own revocation date is 4/27 and I sent in yet another reiteration of my good cause, per the revocation letter's invitation to do so, so we'll see what I get back in response (if anything).

[Spicy McHaggis]

Originally Posted by THE Gimper

Perhaps. There is a difference of opinion between some of us as to whether or not she will send out another letter. In any case, even if she does send out another letter, if he is caught carrying after the 13th, he could be putting himself in legal jeopardy since the person received notice that his license would be revoked as of the 13th. If you're personally willing to take that risk, go ahead. But others might want to think long and hard about the possible consequences of following that advice.

I received notification that my license would be revoked back in October, yet it wasn't.

I'm wondering how she will notify those that didn't send in their licenses before the date that they will be revoked. Expect a few deputies to show up at your door to collect.

[ZUMNDAD]

Today was a beautiful day, spent with family enjoying the Easter festivities. Our family members left just before sundown. Shortly after evening fell tonight, my wife asked me why I had been so quiet throughout the day.

I wasn't aware that I had been acting differently. It kind of caught me off-guard. I had to explain that tonight, the CCW permit was going into the safe along with my listed weapons like it did pretty much every night. The difference was that tomorrow, none of them would come out. The only way to describe the feeling is that I feel like I am awaiting an amputation surgery scheduled for tomorrow morning.

This sucks.

Carrying a concealed weapon has become so much of my normal routine that I am going to have to consciously think about NOT strapping a weapon on when leaving my house. It's going to feel strange.

It reminds me of when I first started carrying a CCW. I was so self-conscious thinking that everyone would be able to tell I was carrying. With time, that faded. Tomorrow I will be, once again, very self-conscious but this time for the semi-helpless feeling that comes from knowing I am unarmed. I don't know if this feeling will fade with time.

I knew I was p/o'd about my permit getting yanked, I just never really expected it to hit me like this. It's hard to put it any other way - this blows.

[gjj]

Taxman, it is not just semantics. When someone says they will do something, that means it is not already a completed fact. Cox cable can say they will terminate my television, phone, and internet services this Friday. When Friday comes, I can go downstairs and turn on my TV. The proof will be if the thing works or not. If there is a picture, I will keep watching it.

Until she does that and THEN notifies people in writing of this completed act, the licenses are still valid.


She probably will revoke the licenses set to expire 4/13. She is doing this arbitrarily and illegally without cause. I don't see the point of making her job easier.

(Spicy - did deputies show up to collect yours? Please explain.)

[ZUMNDAD]

There are a few specific excerpts missing from the "quote" earlier listed. Here is the entire letter as I received it:

** BEGIN QUOTE **

Re: Notice of CCW License Expiration or Revocation Option

Dear XXXXX XXXXX,

The purpose of this letter is to provide you with official notice that unless you request that your current Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) license expire on April 13, 2009, it will be revoked on that date.

The Sheriffs Department has conducted and continues to conduct an internal audit of all its active Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) licenses to ensure legal adherence with California state law. The audit has revealed that your most recent application in our files for a CCW, from which you were issued a license, does not meet the standard of "good cause" which is one of the requirements for issuance. It is important that you know the Sheriffs Department recognizes that your application was made in good faith and the finding of our audit does not reflect any wrongdoing on your part.

The Sheriff Department has engaged in a collaborative process by speaking with the Orange County Board of Supervisors at the Board's public meetings over the past many months on the topic of CCW licenses. During these meetings, members of the Board and the public have provided comments, insights and suggestions which were very informative and much appreciated. The Sheriffs Department has adopted portions of the Board of Supervisor's CCW Resolution in establishing the Department's policy for CCW license issuance.

You may request that your CCW license expire early as opposed to being revoked. So that you can make an informed decision, we are providing the following information to assist you:

By law, the California Department of Justice (DOJ) maintains records within its Automated Firearms System (AFS) of all CCW licenses issued and these records are available only to law enforcement. If a CCW license is revoked, the "revoked" annotation is recorded in the AFS and is later purged from the system in the quarter after the license was set to expire. If a CCW license expires, then information about the license is purged from the system in the quarter after the license expired.

First example: A person is issued a CCW license on January 1, 2008, and the license is set to expire on December 31, 2009. If the license is revoked on March 31, 2009, the license will appear as revoked in the AFS system until it is purged by the end of March 2010.

Second example: A person is issued a CCW license on January 1, 2008 and the DOJ is notified that the license will expire on March 31, 2009. If the license is expired on March 31, 2009, the license will appear as expired in the AFS system until it is purged by the end of June 2009.

The Sheriff's Department has been working with the DOJ and it has been arranged that your CCW license can be expired early as opposed to being revoked. You may request to have your license expire early by enclosing your CCW license in the self-addressed, stamped envelope and mailing it to the Sheriff's Department postmarked within five business days of March 27, 2009. Your returned CCW license will be treated as your request to have your license expire early. Returned CCW licenses postmarked before or within five business days of March 27, 2009 will be recorded with the California Department of Justice's Automated Firearms System as having expired on April 13, 2009.

Licenses not returned to the Sheriff's Department by March 27, 2009 will be revoked and shall be recorded with the California Department of Justice's Automated Firearms System as having been revoked on April 13, 2009.

Over these past many months, the Sheriff's Department has requested and received feedback from many CCW license holders who were asked to provide additional information regarding their good cause statements. As a result, the Department has issued and/or renewed many CCW licenses which would have otherwise not been approved. If you have not taken the opportunity afforded in earlier correspondence to offer additional information regarding good cause to continue the issuance of your existing CCW license, you must do so no later than two weeks before the scheduled expiration or revocation of your license on April 13,2009 by submitting a letter to the Sheriff's Department's Professional Standards Division. The two week deadline for submission of additional information regarding good cause is a minimum amount of time and the information should be sent as early as possible to allow time for the Department's review, verification, and follow-up.

Sincerely,

Dave Nighswonger, Captain
Professional Standards Division

** END OF QUOTE **

The second to last paragraph states an interesting fact: "...and shall be recorded with the California Department of Justice's Automated Firearms System as having been revoked on April 13, 2009."

So, as a result, the DOJ will have it on record that your CCW was revoked on 4/13/09. So if inquiry is made by a LEO after, or even presumably on, 4/13 - it will come back as revoked. If you have a concealed weapon on you when that inquiry is made...well, I will let your imagination figure out what's to happen next.

If your letter says the same as mine, carry at your own risk on or after 4/13.

[gjj]

Just another example of her reckless disregard for the procedures that authorize our CCWs.

They have to formally revoke it. Then, they have to notify you in writing. You can not be expected to behave differently before you have received official notice the CCW has been revoked.

Their PROMISE to revoke it on 4/13 is not the same as a formal notice of revocation! Heck, they PROMISED to honor the CCW for 2 years. They broke that PROMISE. So, why should we believe anything they say?

[swdr]

Originally Posted by rhbanjo

To SWDR: they DID notify me- If you don't turn in your license voluntarily, it is revoked as of April 13.

Yes, they did notify you. IANAL, however, they did not notify you that your license is revoked, which they are required to do per PC 12050 subdivision (e) paragraph (3) in writing at the time they actually revoke your license. What they did was tell you (in writing) of their future plans about what they might do. But as people can change their minds about the future, you wouldn't have a way of knowing if they will follow through with their plans.

One more thing, don't confuse "is" with "will be" -- the tense is different.