Sheriff begins taking away concealed weapons permits

[SierraNevadaCCW]

Originally Posted by gravedigger

Why? Do you believe that a judge or reserve PO is at any greater risk than the average citizen while standing in line at a convenience store? No one is "going after" them, but as someone else said, there should be no special favors for one group over another. I am confident enough to state publicly that I place AT LEAST as much value on MY life as I do on that of ANY judge or LEO. I don't think they deserve any more (or less) consideration to be afforded the means for self-defense.



Really? So, that cop, Peterson who killed how many wives? He should get a CCW "without question" just because he is/was a cop? What about that cop who killed the girl ... Craig Peyer? Please don't try to convince me that cops, judges, reserve LEOs and other folks in law enforcement are somehow cleansed of the potential for evil and thus somehow especially deserving of a CCW. They aren't.

The "cop/judge/Reserve LEO" career choice places no additional weight on any decision I would make about their ability to carry. If they are an honest law-abiding citizen, they should be able to carry, regardless of their career choice.



When you create a division between "us" and "them" by placing those people on a pedestal, you defeat your own argument that any citizen should be able to carry. I am not comparing my career to theirs. I am comparing my LIFE to theirs, and their life is not worth one cent more than mine, or one cent less.



If a person goes out in public, his life IS threatened. Any person at any time at any place can become a victim of violent crime. Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that their lives are in greater peril than my own, given both us us walking down a public street. Criminals don't consult a website with photographs and biographies of "PEOPLE TO HATE." That is why they are called "crimes of opportunity" and not "crimes of carefully researched victims."



I see no difference, and support the issuance of CCW's to judges and RPO's by giving it the exact same priority and weight as that of issuance to any honest citizen regardless of their chosen career.

Judges sentence, try, convict, remand and face criminals or ticked off defendants in civil trials who recognize them on or off duty.

Reserves are out in the field arresting, detaining, interacting with and facing criminals who recognize them on or off duty.

I see your point, but you have to see the other side too. I was a bailiff for a short time when there was open overtime available in the courts. The judge was seriously in fear of his life - even while on the bench. He wouldn't go out there without me by his side. It was a surprise to me at first. Then I realized the 20 inmates (crips, bloods, murderers, rapists, burglars) marched into the court were all looking at him - all day - every day for year after year.

Again...it's us vs. them. It's not special classes unless a sheriff makes it that way with selective issuing. That's the real problem. The politics.

[THE Gimper]

Originally Posted by SierraNevadaCCW

Again...it's us vs. them. It's not special classes unless a sheriff makes it that way with selective issuing. That's the real problem. The politics.

And that is our objection. We're not opposed to them having CCWs, and we certainly appreciate the LEO community.

[PirateQueen]

Originally Posted by Don Retired Officer

I would also add, Correctional Officer and former Correctional Officers. They also have targets painted on their backs. When the BG's get out they look for the ones that kept them inside. My hat is off to all LEO's and Correctional Officers!!

I'll second that.

[IAmASensFan]

Originally Posted by SierraNevadaCCW

Judges sentence, try, convict, remand and face criminals or ticked off defendants in civil trials who recognize them on or off duty.

Reserves are out in the field arresting, detaining, interacting with and facing criminals who recognize them on or off duty.

I see your point, but you have to see the other side too. I was a bailiff for a short time when there was open overtime available in the courts. The judge was seriously in fear of his life - even while on the bench. He wouldn't go out there without me by his side. It was a surprise to me at first. Then I realized the 20 inmates (crips, bloods, murderers, rapists, burglars) marched into the court were all looking at him - all day - every day for year after year.

Again...it's us vs. them. It's not special classes unless a sheriff makes it that way with selective issuing. That's the real problem. The politics.

The problem is that the judge and the reserve are SPECULATING that someone will recognize them and retaliate. There is evidence that this is NOT based in fact, that it is speculation, and that they are not at any greater risk than the general public.

If that was the case, my PSR uniform alone should justify my CCW because I look as much like a sheriff's deputy as a reserve does.

Yet we have people here who have to go to shady neighborhoods, and are being revoked, because nothing has happened...they can only SPECULATE what can happen.

Kinda throws the sheriff's "Fair", "Equitable" and "Transparent" system out the window.

And your own experience amplifies what is unfair about the system...the Judge had an armed bailiff by his side. None of us are afforded the same personal protection?

[Quietpi]

Whoa, folks!

You know that I'm totally in favor of "Shall Issue," or as close to it as we can get. And that necessarily places everybody, including judges, reserve deputies, etc. and you and I in the same category. But we are in a "May Issue" world.

The idea that judges and reserve deputies lack very strong "Good Cause" is a little strange. I know several judges, and once was a reserve deputy. They HAVE "Good Cause." I've personally run into judges, and deputies, and lots of other people all over town. Why would they only run into good guys?

Funny -- just last Friday I was reading an account of a judge's house being firebombed by none other than William Ayres and his wife, Bernadette Dorn. Then there was the gang banger who informed me that it wouldn't be healthy for me if he went to prison. He was charged in a drive-by. He went to prison. In fact, he got out a couple years ago.

[Harry Carry]

FYI, since 1994, there have been only 4 LEOs murdered in California while off duty. Only one was targeted (and that was after he was ID'd by his badge during a robbery). Two of them were not carrying at the time.

[CCWInstructor]

Originally Posted by Quietpi

Whoa, folks!

You know that I'm totally in favor of "Shall Issue," or as close to it as we can get. And that necessarily places everybody, including judges, reserve deputies, etc. and you and I in the same category. But we are in a "May Issue" world.

But the court says they should all be treated equally when it comes to good cause.

[IAmASensFan]

Originally Posted by Quietpi

Whoa, folks!

You know that I'm totally in favor of "Shall Issue," or as close to it as we can get. And that necessarily places everybody, including judges, reserve deputies, etc. and you and I in the same category. But we are in a "May Issue" world.

The idea that judges and reserve deputies lack very strong "Good Cause" is a little strange. I know several judges, and once was a reserve deputy. They HAVE "Good Cause." I've personally run into judges, and deputies, and lots of other people all over town. Why would they only run into good guys?

Funny -- just last Friday I was reading an account of a judge's house being firebombed by none other than William Ayres and his wife, Bernadette Dorn. Then there was the gang banger who informed me that it wouldn't be healthy for me if he went to prison. He was charged in a drive-by. He went to prison. In fact, he got out a couple years ago.

We aren't saying it doesn't happen, but it doesn't happen with any more frequency than other professions. The fact that we are arguing about it means it's all subjective, and that is what the process is NOT supposed to be.

By the Sheriffs own words, it's supposed to be fair, but it CAN'T be, when the process is Subjective. The only way to be fair is to be Objective, and that can't happen unless the system is Shall Issue, and people can get a CCW based on Self Defence, regardless of profession (Status), because frankly, that is the ONLY way to get one, unless you are already a victim. Well, Dead is too late.

You have to own a business...you have to be of a specific job description...you have to transport excessive sums of cash on a regular basis...

[SierraNevadaCCW]

Originally Posted by IAmASensFan

The problem is that the judge and the reserve are SPECULATING that someone will recognize them and retaliate.

Isn't everyone, "speculating" they will be robbed or recognized or threatened in some way? LOL
The whole reason we have a ccw is the speculation something may happen.

[CCWInstructor]

Originally Posted by Harry Carry

FYI, since 1994, there have been only 4 LEOs murdered in California while off duty. Only one was targeted (and that was after he was ID'd by his badge during a robbery). Two of them were not carrying at the time.

Sounds like you have been reading two CA-POST LEOKA reports. Good read!

[IAmASensFan]

Originally Posted by SierraNevadaCCW

Isn't everyone, "speculating" they will be robbed or recognized or threatened in some way? LOL
The whole reason we have a ccw is the speculation something may happen.

Yes...that is correct, and you will notice that I did make that exact point.

Yet we have people here who have to go to shady neighborhoods, and are being revoked, because nothing has happened...they can only SPECULATE what can happen.

The final decision is made upon who the sheriff thinks is the best speculator!



So one persons speculation, which is not quailified by numbers, is found better than another persons speculation, which can easily be qualified by numbers.

Thats why I say that this system is inherintly unfair, and can never BE fair, unless the state goes shall issue.

[SierraNevadaCCW]

Originally Posted by IAmASensFan

Yes...that is correct. And the final decision is made upon who the sheriff thinks is the best speculator!



So one persons speculation, which is not quailified by numbers, is found better than another persons speculation, which can easily be qualified by numbers.

Dude...you're speculating, that people speculate over which speculator has the final decision, but then speculate some numbers which all come out in the wash as speculation. Un-specticulating-believable!

[gravedigger]

Originally Posted by SierraNevadaCCW

I see your point, but you have to see the other side too.

I DO see the other side and I do not disagree at all that judges, cops, LEOs, prison guards, etc. etc. should be issued CCW licenses without delay, AS SHOULD ANY CITIZEN of good standing be issued a CCW without delay. Where we part ways is by your suggestion that we should give "them" CCWs ASAP while the rest of us wrestle with moronic laws and restrictions placed on us BY judges, cops, LEOs and so forth. If they get the Hell out of our way and allow us to defend ourselves, then I agree that they too, should be afforded that ability.

I was a bailiff for a short time when there was open overtime available in the courts. The judge was seriously in fear of his life - even while on the bench. He wouldn't go out there without me by his side. It was a surprise to me at first. Then I realized the 20 inmates (crips, bloods, murderers, rapists, burglars) marched into the court were all looking at him - all day - every day for year after year.

That does not make the taking of HIS life any more tragic than the taking of MY life.

Again...it's us vs. them. It's not special classes unless a sheriff makes it that way with selective issuing. That's the real problem. The politics.

I agree with you.

[IAmASensFan]

Originally Posted by SierraNevadaCCW

Dude...you're speculating, that people speculate over which speculator has the final decision, but then speculate some numbers which all come out in the wash as speculation. Un-specticulating-believable!

I speculated once, and had to write a letter of appology.

what a mess

[gravedigger]

Originally Posted by Quietpi

The idea that judges and reserve deputies lack very strong "Good Cause" is a little strange. I know several judges, and once was a reserve deputy. They HAVE "Good Cause." I've personally run into judges, and deputies, and lots of other people all over town. Why would they only run into good guys?

Are you suggesting that ordinary citizens only run into good guys?

To argue that the judges have a strong "good cause" just because their chosen career makes a lot of low lifes angry at them, you must also provide numbers that back you up. I'll bet you a dozen bavarian cream filled Crispy Cream doughnuts that statistically speaking, "Joe Sixpack" is mugged, stabbed, shot and KILLED FAR more often than "Judge Thughanger." 10,000 unarmed citizens are killed each year. how many of them are judges, LEOs and your other categories that you classify as having a strong good cause? I'll bet it is less than 1/2 of 1%

Judges drive nice cars, live in nice houses with alarm systems. Joe Sixpack lives in the low rent district, has a job where he regularly mingles among the population which contains all sorts of low life, and he is FAR more likely to randomly encounter a deadly threat than the judge is.

Funny -- just last Friday I was reading an account of a judge's house being firebombed by none other than William Ayres and his wife, Bernadette Dorn. Then there was the gang banger who informed me that it wouldn't be healthy for me if he went to prison. He was charged in a drive-by. He went to prison. In fact, he got out a couple years ago.

I live in Vista, CA. It is heavily populated by illegal Mexicans, many with criminal records, even more with horrible untreated diseases they brought over from Mexico or contracted from some hooker on South Santa Fe Avenue, and few of them even speak English. There are stabbings, break-ins, burglaries, car thefts, carjackings, murders and rapes occurring in this area nearly every day. I don't think five days can pass without me hearing a gun being fired off in the distance late at night.

The Melrose courthouse isn't far away. There are judges in there who live in Rancho Penasquitos or Hidden Meadows or Crosby Estates, all gated communities with large expensive homes or mansions, private 24-hour armed security roaming their private streets in patrol cars day and night, and an armed guard at every gate.

I'm sorry, but even if there are a whole bunch of gang bangers who hate a certain judge at the Melrose courthouse, I can't buy the argument that HE is more worthy of a CCW than I am. Even if not a single gang banger knows I exist, that is no guarantee that I will not find myself at the wrong end of a knife or gun and there is NOTHING to support the argument that I am less likely to find myself in a life threatening situation than a judge is, but I could certainly provide you with numbers and stats that prove a CITIZEN is at far greater statistical risk than a JUDGE!

It would be NICE if criminals said, "Hi. I'm looking to rob someone for drug money and I'm willing to kill them if they don't cooperate or if they have nothing to give me. Now, I've selected you because you are alone here in this parking lot where no one can see us, but before I proceed, please tell me if you have any "good cause" which would prevent me from making you my next victim. For instance, if you are not a judge, a cop, or a prison guard, I really have no beef with you, so we'll just part as friends and go our separate ways. So ... what do you do for a living sir?"

The judge pulls into a fine restaurant where his car is parked by a valet attendant. He is seated in a quiet corner and given exceptional service. It is fairly certain that some low life drifting into the restaurant gunning for the judge would be noticed and at the very least, encouraged to leave.

I go to Burger King for a quick bite. I park in the lot and walk in to stand in line with all of the riff-raff. The lowest of low lifes walk in and stand in line behind me. They can be homeless, diseased or BLEEDING and the B.K. employees will do NOTHING about it. If he is looking for trouble, I seriously doubt that the fact that I am not a judge will matter to him.

Again, I can't see where the judge is at any greater risk than I am. In fact, it is *I* who am at greater risk, because my normal daily habits place me where a judge seldom goes, in the lines at convenience stores and fast food joints, in the mall and other retail stores and on public streets where criminals just might decide I am their next victim, even though they don't know me or hate me.