Sheriff begins taking away concealed weapons permits

[hbliam]

Originally Posted by Harry Carry

There are no statistics to support that off duty reserves are at any greater risk than Joe or Jane Public. Sorry, but it's true.

When I was a reserve I had two different times I ran into people off duty that I had dealt with on duty. Not fun.

Further, being classified as a cop puts an instant target on your head by some groups of people.

[akulahawk]

Originally Posted by IAmASensFan

Sorry, she's also revoking many Security and Bodyguard related CCW's...

But at least they can OC while working... as long as they have the appropriate guard card/gun permit.

You know, to me it just sounds wrong that you can hire a company to provide armed protection for yourself, but you aren't allowed to take that responsibility by yourself... without a CCW. Which the SHEriff isn't being very helpful with...

[IAmASensFan]

Originally Posted by akulahawk

But at least they can OC while working... as long as they have the appropriate guard card/gun permit.

You know, to me it just sounds wrong that you can hire a company to provide armed protection for yourself, but you aren't allowed to take that responsibility by yourself... without a CCW. Which the SHEriff isn't being very helpful with...

Thats the point I was making...the kind of security normally hired to protect an individual person does not wear a uniform, and therefore, must be concealed.

And this takes us into a whole new realm...retired OCSD friends are telling me there is talk of the department cutting or lowering the threshold for the "Extra Help" program. This means a lot of retired deputies will be looking elsewhere for their paychecks.

Maybe Hutchens is trying to ensure alternate means of employement for them, as a result of the economic situation...

I'm just thinking out loud...

[Don Retired Officer]

Originally Posted by hbliam

When I was a reserve I had two different times I ran into people off duty that I had dealt with on duty. Not fun.

Further, being classified as a cop puts an instant target on your head by some groups of people.

I would also add, Correctional Officer and former Correctional Officers. They also have targets painted on their backs. When the BG's get out they look for the ones that kept them inside. My hat is off to all LEO's and Correctional Officers!!

[Harry Carry]

Those are wonderful anecdotes. But they are just that. No study has shown that reserves suffer any higher victimization than the general population.

[THE Gimper]

Originally Posted by Harry Carry

Those are wonderful anecdotes. But they are just that. No study has shown that reserves suffer any higher victimization than the general population.

And regardless, all applicants are supposed to be treated equally. It is not fair, equitable or legal to treat any group of applicants differently.

[gravedigger]

Originally Posted by hbliam

When I was a reserve I had two different times I ran into people off duty that I had dealt with on duty. Not fun.

Further, being classified as a cop puts an instant target on your head by some groups of people.

I feel for you, but being classified as an gar-un-dam-teed by the U.S. Gu'Mint UNARMED CITIZEN puts an instant target on MY head, so I see no difference in the threat level.

[hbliam]

Originally Posted by Harry Carry

Those are wonderful anecdotes. But they are just that. No study has shown that reserves suffer any higher victimization than the general population.

Common sense doesn't need a study.

Originally Posted by THE Gimper

And regardless, all applicants are supposed to be treated equally. It is not fair, equitable or legal to treat any group of applicants differently.

I'm totally down with your cause. I feel for the problems you guys are having. I'm pro CCW for almost anyone. But when you start going after the judges/reserve PO's you are starting to lose me and I'm sure you'll lose others. Most reasonable people can draw the conclusion that those two classes are in need of a CCW without question. When you start comparing yourselves to them you start to get a little of the "gun nut" clouding up your cause.

Some of you that applied for CCW's have had your lives threatened. EVERY judge and PO has, numerous times.

Originally Posted by gravedigger

I feel for you, but being classified as an gar-un-dam-teed by the U.S. Gu'Mint UNARMED CITIZEN puts an instant target on MY head, so I see no difference in the threat level.

I do see a differance and support the issuance of CCW's to judges and RPO's without delay.

[Harry Carry]

Unfortunately for your argument, the law says otherwise. Salute v Pitchess says there may not be special classes. And, again, if common sense, as you put it, is in actuality fact, then studies would show that. They don't. Full time PD and Level 1D's have a need because of 24 hour PO status, if I'm not mistaken. Reserves, unless something has changed, don't.

But, hey, I'm all for everyone carrying that legally can. IMO, the quickest way to that would be to say that NO ONE can, even off duty full time LEO. Let everyone be in the same boat of having to wait for 911 to answer and dispatch, because, sorry, my life is no less valuable than yours or a judges if some scumbag decides I'm his victim.

Originally Posted by hbliam

Common sense doesn't need a study.



I'm totally down with your cause. I feel for the problems you guys are having. I'm pro CCW for almost anyone. But when you start going after the judges/reserve PO's you are starting to lose me and I'm sure you'll lose others. Most reasonable people can draw the conclusion that those two classes are in need of a CCW without question. When you start comparing yourselves to them you start to get a little of the "gun nut" clouding up your cause.

Some of you that applied for CCW's have had your lives threatened. EVERY judge and PO has, numerous times.



I do see a differance and support the issuance of CCW's to judges and RPO's without delay.

[G30 Steve]

Originally Posted by akulahawk

But at least they can OC while working... as long as they have the appropriate guard card/gun permit.

You know, to me it just sounds wrong that you can hire a company to provide armed protection for yourself, but you aren't allowed to take that responsibility by yourself... without a CCW. Which the SHEriff isn't being very helpful with...

Guess who own or work for the private companies that can provide you with armed plain clothes security.
Answer - Retired full time LEOs.

You might say they (CLEOs) are keeping it all in the family by not admitting ordinary citizens to the club.

[Bombard]

But, hey, I'm all for everyone carrying that legally can. IMO, the quickest way to that would be to say that NO ON can, even off duty full time LEO.

I'm afraid you've fallen into the same logical fallacy that Mr. Guillory has.

Mr. Guillory reasonably believes that many counties only issue CCWs to people with connections. He says that if the court can force those counties to treat everyone fairly, their CLEOs will have no choice - the HAVE to keep issuing to their special friends, so they'll be forced to issue to everyone fairly.

But there's no evidence that they HAVE to keep issuing to their special friends. SF doesn't, and they don't fall into a mystical hole of impossibility.

If a jurisdiction chose to not allow full time LEO's to CCW off duty, they might lose some officers. The crime rate would probably tick up. There would be some unfortunate incidents with OD officers meeting miscreants - but the world wouldn't end. And it wouldn't bring widely issued permits. It would just make it a worse world to live in.

[gravedigger]

Originally Posted by hbliam

I'm pro CCW for almost anyone. But when you start going after the judges/reserve PO's you are starting to lose me and I'm sure you'll lose others.

Why? Do you believe that a judge or reserve PO is at any greater risk than the average citizen while standing in line at a convenience store? No one is "going after" them, but as someone else said, there should be no special favors for one group over another. I am confident enough to state publicly that I place AT LEAST as much value on MY life as I do on that of ANY judge or LEO. I don't think they deserve any more (or less) consideration to be afforded the means for self-defense.

Most reasonable people can draw the conclusion that those two classes are in need of a CCW without question.

Really? So, that cop, Peterson who killed how many wives? He should get a CCW "without question" just because he is/was a cop? What about that cop who killed the girl ... Craig Peyer? Please don't try to convince me that cops, judges, reserve LEOs and other folks in law enforcement are somehow cleansed of the potential for evil and thus somehow especially deserving of a CCW. They aren't.

The "cop/judge/Reserve LEO" career choice places no additional weight on any decision I would make about their ability to carry. If they are an honest law-abiding citizen, they should be able to carry, regardless of their career choice.

When you start comparing yourselves to them you start to get a little of the "gun nut" clouding up your cause.

When you create a division between "us" and "them" by placing those people on a pedestal, you defeat your own argument that any citizen should be able to carry. I am not comparing my career to theirs. I am comparing my LIFE to theirs, and their life is not worth one cent more than mine, or one cent less.

Some of you that applied for CCW's have had your lives threatened. EVERY judge and PO has, numerous times.

If a person goes out in public, his life IS threatened. Any person at any time at any place can become a victim of violent crime. Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that their lives are in greater peril than my own, given both us us walking down a public street. Criminals don't consult a website with photographs and biographies of "PEOPLE TO HATE." That is why they are called "crimes of opportunity" and not "crimes of carefully researched victims."

I do see a difference and support the issuance of CCW's to judges and RPO's without delay.

I see no difference, and support the issuance of CCW's to judges and RPO's by giving it the exact same priority and weight as that of issuance to any honest citizen regardless of their chosen career.

[DVSmith]

Originally Posted by Bombard

I'm afraid you've fallen into the same logical fallacy that Mr. Guillory has.

Mr. Guillory reasonably believes that many counties only issue CCWs to people with connections. He says that if the court can force those counties to treat everyone fairly, their CLEOs will have no choice - the HAVE to keep issuing to their special friends, so they'll be forced to issue to everyone fairly.

But there's no evidence that they HAVE to keep issuing to their special friends. SF doesn't, and they don't fall into a mystical hole of impossibility.

If a jurisdiction chose to not allow full time LEO's to CCW off duty, they might lose some officers. The crime rate would probably tick up. There would be some unfortunate incidents with OD officers meeting miscreants - but the world wouldn't end. And it wouldn't bring widely issued permits. It would just make it a worse world to live in.

Hi Bombard, good to hear from you!

I didn't interpret HC's comments as being specific to a jurisdiction such as Orange County, I interpreted his comments as applying to a statewide decision. That being the case, the whole state would have to level the playing field. It is possible that some jurisdictions would just as soon disarm their police as well as their citizens as you suggest, however, I don't think the state legislature would see it that way or have the stomach to do so. Especially since the police and sheriffs' unions support the majority dems.

[Glock32]

Any American Citizen with a clean record and proper training should be able to carry a firearm or any other weapon of choice for all legal purposes.

What Sheriff Hutchens is doing right now is driving a big wedge between the ordinary law abiding citizens of Orange County and the Law Enforcement community. Tell me how that benefits society? How does it benefit Orange County? It doesn't. It benefits the Sheriff's ego who seems to be as anti-gun as they come.

Cops do not deserve the right to CCW any more than the butcher or hair stylist next door. Neither do judges or actors. Can anybody show me the crime statistics where a judge or off-duty LEO is at higher risk of becoming the victim of a violent crime than let's say a bar tender? I would love to see the numbers.

[hbliam]

I guess my views on the subject aren't on the same page with this site. I thought they were at one point but hell, I'm in the same boat as the local butcher I guess.

No sense arguing about it anymore. I'm out.