OCSD Admits Restricted Licenses Endanger CCW Licensees

[Quietpi]

Originally Posted by steelrain82

sorry guys I'm still not understanding. what sort of restrictions would be on a persons ccw and would they vary from person to person even from the same area. I don't have my ccw as I'm still saving to buy a pistol that I would carry so I'm trying to learn all I can. I live in ventura county not oc. but I go there often enough

Steelrain, there are many such restrictions. Some counties use them liberally, some don't. A common limitation is permitting carry only "In the course of employment." Others specifically list particular places off limits, such as churches, schools, airports (meaning in the non-secured areas),etc.

These would be in addition to state and local laws that place blanket restrictions. Some states have many restrictions. California actually has few.

A common restriction is carrying in churches. That's why there are never any shootings at churches.

[BonoVox]

Originally Posted by steelrain82

sorry guys I'm still not understanding. what sort of restrictions would be on a persons ccw and would they vary from person to person even from the same area. I don't have my ccw as I'm still saving to buy a pistol that I would carry so I'm trying to learn all I can. I live in ventura county not oc. but I go there often enough

The common restriction that has now been impleminted to hundreds of CCWs in Orange County is "Course & Scope of Business".

If you received a CCW it would be from Ventura County. If you had a Ventura County CCW and came to OC you would follow the guidelines of Ventura County not OC.

Hope that helps.

[BonoVox]

Putting a restriction on a CCW for Course and Scope of Business is asinine!

hypothetical.....I have been issued a CCW let's say because I carry lots of cash for my business. Now bad guys knows by what my profession is that I carry lots of cash frequently. Bad guys figure they want to rob and murder me for my cash. Now that day comes where bad guy wants to act. What if that day I am taking the day off work and do not have cash. Bad guy would not know one way or other. I am defenseless and soon DEAD Orange County CCW holder now.

The Sheriff's department as much as said the same thing above. But they still went ahead and changed the policy and issued MASS restrictions to Orange County CCW holders when they know (proof being the correspondence above) it can possibly get someone KILLED! Why?

[steelrain82]

oh ok. thanks so much everyone who helped me. now when I do apply I hope vc won't suck as much

[Ken_In_Colo]

Originally Posted by octrustatty

hmmm...knowingly putting people at mortal risk through arbitrary & capricious restrictions?...

And admitting it in writing could get Hutch in a world of trouble should any restricted CCW holder be attacked while unarmed due to a restriction.

[derringer]

Originally Posted by BonoVox

hypothetical.....I have been issued a CCW let's say because I carry lots of cash for my business. Now bad guys knows by what my profession is that I carry lots of cash frequently. Bad guys figure they want to rob and murder me for my cash. Now that day comes where bad guy wants to act. What if that day I am taking the day off work and do not have cash. Bad guy would not know one way or other. I am defenseless and soon DEAD Orange County CCW holder now.

I wouldn't ascribe to that course of reasoning if I were you.

On the one hand, most everyone is voicing concern (as the OCSD has so kindly confirmed) that a criminal would attack when he knows you are UNARMED. Now, you are saying that a criminal would attack when he knows you may be ARMED (because you may be carrying cash). Those are contradictory ideas. IMO, a criminal who is after your cash during the performance of your profession would be much less likely to attack knowing you are probably armed. If he doesn't know you are "taking a day off", then he also doesn't know you are unarmed, and if he did, he would know you probably aren't carrying the cash and wouldn't attack anyway. So, please, keep it simple.

[BonoVox]

Originally Posted by derringer

I wouldn't ascribe to that course of reasoning if I were you.

On the one hand, most everyone is voicing concern (as the OCSD has so kindly confirmed) that a criminal would attack when he knows you are UNARMED. Now, you are saying that a criminal would attack when he knows you may be ARMED (because you may be carrying cash). Those are contradictory ideas. IMO, a criminal who is after your cash during the performance of your profession would be much less likely to attack knowing you are probably armed. If he doesn't know you are "taking a day off", then he also doesn't know you are unarmed, and if he did, he would know you probably aren't carrying the cash and wouldn't attack anyway. So, please, keep it simple.

Where did I say that?

[derringer]

Originally Posted by BonoVox

hypothetical.....I have been issued a CCW let's say because I carry lots of cash for my business. Now bad guys knows by what my profession is that I carry lots of cash frequently. Bad guys figure they want to rob and murder me for my cash. Now that day comes where bad guy wants to act. What if that day I am taking the day off work and do not have cash. Bad guy would not know one way or other. I am defenseless and soon DEAD Orange County CCW holder now.

CCW (armed) for work.
Carry cash for work (GC).
BG wants your cash.
BG sees when you carry (armed) = carrying cash.
BG robs and murders you for your cash (while working = armed).
?

I know it was just hypothetical. But, be careful about what you are implying here.

[NikNak]

Originally Posted by Diamond Jim

What is stupid was the fact that OCSD would put it in writing. This is just another shining example of the old adage “There is no cure for stupid”. Fortunately, intelligent people have a way to remove incompetent individuals from power. In our case, 2010 comes to mind….

In the words of a Forrest Gump ..... "My mommy always told me that stupid is as stupid does...."

They literally have no brains and just "pants'd" themselves.

I am shocked, dismayed and confused .... all in one and I still feel smarter than them.

[BonoVox]

Originally Posted by derringer

CCW (armed) for work.
Carry cash for work (GC).
BG wants your cash.
BG sees when you carry (armed) = carrying cash.
BG robs and murders you for your cash (while working = armed).
?

I know it was just hypothetical. But, be careful about what you are implying here.

How does bad guy know you have a CCW???? Or are armed????

My point is.....(since you have totally missed it)......people that are issued CCWs for high risk business purposes. Those people can be targeted by a bad guy at any time because the bad guy knows of his profession.

Bad guy "Hey bad guy accomplis, there is Joe the jeweler pulling up in front of Yogurt Land. I bet he has some good stuff on him. Let's go commit an armed robbery!"

Sorry Joe is unarmed because he was heading home after closing shop and his Orange County CCW says he can not carry. Joe the jeweler is DEAD!

Let's take the case of Sam the shop owner. Sam makes large cash deposits and owns a high end art gallery. Sam is spotted around town by the same two bad guys on a armored robber and murder spree.

Because again Sam was out running personal errands his Orange Country CCW has a restriction on it. Sam is unarmed. Well the murders this time kidnap Sam at gun point and bring him to his shop, forcing him to open the doors and disable the alarm system. They make out with priceless art work and Sam is murdered in the back room.


Yeah restrictions on CCWs really make sense. I really wonder why do they put them on in the first place. Upside NONE. Downside well you see it from the scenarios above. Actually we all know why they do it even in spite of endangering people's lives! As they admit above!

[derringer]

Yes, I totally misunderstood you. Sorry about that.
I misread, and thought you meant the BG got the information about the man's carrying cash via the GC statement (which, if I understand correctly, IS public record).

[Kingpin]

steelrain82 here's a couple of scenarios to start. Others on the forum will no doubt have better ones.

If someone is threatened, but they're only able to CCW in the scope and course of their duties, then having others know that this person is unarmed say at a social event, could subject that person to additional risk if the "bad guys" were out looking for them.

It could also mean that due to fear of being unable to adequately defend themselves in court if an incident should occur during a time of questionable coverage by the CCW permit, a restricted CCW holder might chose to leave the weapon at home. This person would then have been coerced into exposing themselves to greater/unnecessary risk.

[PirateQueen]

Is the Course & Scope of Business subject to public viewing?

[Quietpi]

A huge problem with the "In the course and scope of business" restriction is the difficulty of defining just what, when and where the restriction applies. If you're a business owner, or if you work "billing hours," then just when and where are you involved in your business, and when aren't you? If I get to a town early for an appointment, and stop at a Starbucks, am I then not doing my business, and therefore have to disarm? What if I do paperwork while I'm drinking my Verona? If I save the life of a little old lady who was being robbed and beaten, was that in the course and scope? (No, unless she's my client.)

The whole idea of restrictions opens a Pandora's Box.

[scr83jp]

I've always wondered if the LA CCW issued to lapd chief willie williams had any restrictions on it since it was reported he failed the basic POST class about 4 times.Basic POST class PC832 Laws of Arrest, Search & Seizure plus Firearms.